Does Sin glorify God?

[13Hankins]

I'm having an argument about this. I think that since we can't live the perfect life he does our sins glorify him because we cant live up to those expectations.

 

[tynian]

Why do you say that sins glorify God?
Do you think that He make make adam and eve falling down for His own glory?

I can't believe that

 

[Allen2]

I don't believe that sins make God look good or enhance His reputation(glorify). However, in sending His Son to die and rise again to rescue us FROM our sins, God's love and power and compassion are glorified. He is also able to work thru people's deliberate sin(I would say that the death of Christ is a good eg. of the worst of sins) and bring about good: the offer of salvation to all sinners. God bless, Al

 

[4sightsounds]

Interesting question. In asking, I think it's important that we examine the purpose of God's glory. Remember, he created us for his pleasure. Therefore, his glory is for us to behold. Even before sin entered, Adam's relationship involved him beholding God's glory through the world God created. This was achieved in a sinless environment.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm having an argument about this. I think that since we can't live the perfect life he does our sins glorify him because we cant live up to those expectations.

ALL things work to the glory of God. EVERYTHING we do glorifies God in some way because all things happen according to His divine, providential grace.

This is not to say that we are called to sin that grace may abound. On the contrary, we are called to be holy, as the Lord is holy. But viewing God as a God who is glorified only when we are obedient is to make the Word of God something that is centered on us rather than on His majesty. Was God glorified in the sinfulness of Pharaoh? The Word tells us that Pharaoh was raised up for the very purpose of glorifying God (Rom 9:17). Did Pharaoh glorify the Lord by being obedient? Of course not. Does that mean that the glory of the Lord is not revealed in His dealings with Pharaoh? Of course He is glorified.

Part of the problem is that we tend to see things from such a self centered view. Often we can't see how God is glorified in a particular situation so we assume that means that He isn't glorified. God's providence in the lives of His creation brings Him glory because He is sovereign. God is glorified in different ways by different things that He brings to pass. God is glorified in revealing His wrath against unrighteousness, as He was with Pharaoh because that was the reason that God had raised him to a position of power, and God is glorified in the lives of His children by His merciful grace in sanctifying us and making us a light of His holiness to the world.

God is glorified in all things because He is God and He is sovereign.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Sin offends God-- it does not glory him.

As a Catholic we understand that sin can put us in hell and when we sin we can lose grace if the sin is deadly, so from a purely Catholic perspective, no, sin does not glorify him, it offends him deeply but thank God for his grace because for the times when we do fall and we can not live up to his expectations, he forgives us.

Jesus said to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect so we can live up to his expectations but ONLY, only, only with his grace.

That is what the power of the cross does for us, it transforms our imperfections in to perfection when we cooperate with his grace but we are a work in progress and our keeping on keeping on, running the race and fighting the good fight is what brings him glory even if we fail but the sin itself does not glorify him, it offends him.

 

[Reformationist]

Jesus said to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect so we can live up to his expectations but ONLY, only, only with his grace.

You know of a perfect person? I won't deny that it is within the power of God to completely sanctify us in an instant. I'm just not aware of Him ever doing so with anyone. From a purely academic standpoint I'm curious if you know of a person who was perfect, aside from Christ of course.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

You know of a perfect person? I won't deny that it is within the power of God to completely sanctify us in an instant. I'm just not aware of Him ever doing so with anyone. From a purely academic standpoint I'm curious if you know of a person who was perfect, aside from Christ of course.

God bless

Hi, Don, good to "see" you.


Well, Christ is perfect because that is his nature but there are those who he gives the grace to be perfect to and we call them saint.

Our definition is a little different from yours I am sure you know, anyone in heaven is a saint but God did raise extraordinary people up and predestined them for this sanctification and they lived perfect faith as they allowed grace to transform them.

I can suggest some saints biography for you to read and you can see for yourself what we refer to as “perfect.”

We do not mean impeccability, we just mean they perfectly relied on grace to save them and they knew they were nothing with out God and they let themselves be transformed totally by Christ by denying themselves and giving their will to God.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi, Don, good to "see" you.

Good to "see" you too.

Well, Christ is perfect because that is his nature but there are those who he gives the grace to be perfect to and we call them saint.

Our definition is a little different from yours I am sure you know, anyone in heaven is a saint but God did raise extraordinary people up and predestined them for this sanctification and they lived perfect faith as they allowed grace to transform them.

I can acknowledge a sense of perfection when we are glorified in Heaven. I'm not really confused about that. It just seems as if you are saying that there have been people that have been perfect while still alive. Is that something that you believe.

I can suggest some saints biography for you to read and you can see for yourself what we refer to as “perfect.”

We do not mean impeccability, we just mean they perfectly relied on grace to save them and they knew they were nothing with out God and they let themselves be transformed totally by Christ by denying themselves and giving their will to God.

Hmmm...okay. Let's see. How do I address this without seeming argumentative. I'm not sure there's a way but I will preface what I'm about to say with the qualifier that I understand we just see this differently.

I have a better understanding now of what you mean by "perfect" and that clears it up a bit for me but if I'm understanding you right it seems that maybe "perfect" carries too strong of a connotation. Not to mention, I can't even fathom a person who "perfectly relied on grace to save them." I think that the implication that a person "perfectly relied on grace to save them" shows that every single thing they actually did was by faith, that is, they never did anything sinful. I think it is presumptuous at best, and completely irreverent to God to make such an implication. I guess I'm having a problem with the distinction you seem to be making between a person who is "perfect in deed" and a person who is "perfect in faith." I can't see how someone can be perfect in faith and not perfect in deed. For our actions to be holy they must be predicated by our faith. If our faith is always perfect, that is, complete and always foremost as our motivation, then our actions will always be motivated by that faith and be in accordance with God's Law.

I'm just confused. If you understand where I'm confused maybe you could help clear up the distinction you're making.

Thanks Michelle,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Don,

We do not think that a person who is declared a saint never sinned or was not a sinner, on the contraire, look at Augustan, the biggest... well, pervert there was and he is a saint and a doctor of the Church.

Perfection is when we let go and let God do all the work in us and yes, people who were still living reached this.

Mother Theresa would be a good example of one who had extraordinary graces given to her by God. She was "perfect" not because she didn't ever sin, but because she relied on grace when she did in a perfect way, never doubting and procrastinating over the mercy of God and her life, the way she cared for the poor was miraculous and a testimony to her holiness. That is what we view perfection to be, holiness.

No one could do that with out grace and she let that grace transform her into a saint.

Mother Angelica is another example to me of a living saint, she accepts all that God gives her as a grace and she lives out that "perfectly." She often said, "we are all called to be great saints, do not miss the opportunity."

That means that if we accept everything that comes our way as a grace and we hand our lives/will over to God, then by his grace he will transform us into his son. Our opportunity is where ever he places us in our lives, living out our faith with heroic virtue. That is what it means to cooperate with grace.

 

[Reformationist]

Don,

We do not think that a person who is declared a saint never sinned or was not a sinner, on the contraire, look at Augustan, the biggest... well, pervert there was and he is a saint and a doctor of the Church.

Perfection is when we let go and let God do all the work in us and yes, people who were still living reached this.

Mother Theresa would be a good example of one who had extraordinary graces given to her by God. She was "perfect" not because she didn't ever sin, but because she relied on grace when she did in a perfect way, never doubting and procrastinating over the mercy of God and her life, the way she cared for the poor was miraculous and a testimony to her holiness. That is what we view perfection to be, holiness.

No one could do that with out grace and she let that grace transform her into a saint.

Mother Angelica is another example to me of a living saint, she accepts all that God gives her as a grace and she lives out that "perfectly." She often said, "we are all called to be great saints, do not miss the opportunity."

That means that if we accept everything that comes our way as a grace and we hand our lives/will over to God, then by his grace he will transform us into his son. Our opportunity is where ever he places us in our lives, living out our faith with heroic virtue. That is what it means to cooperate with grace.

I see. Thanks.

Have a good night.

God bless,
Don

 

[Luchnia]

God loathes sin and the sinner and their fate is written for us. The Word shows the fate of the sinner if sin is continued in. Why is perfection always equated with being free from sin? They are two entirely different things. Being a new creation in Christ Jesus does not indicate perfection, only being dead to sin and free from sin. Perfection takes some time to attain. Why else be commanded to be perfect?

The Word clearly indicates that one who is in Christ is not in sin, if so then the author lied. If a Christian led by God's Spirit is in sin, then God's Spirit is leading the person to sin. This is another fallacy that is taught. That would make God liable for man's sin. No, the man that sins is a servant to sin and Satan and his fate is known unless he repent and forsake sin. Whom a man yields to is whom a man serves whether of sin unto death, or righteousness unto eternal life. Choose this day whom you will serve!

Word up!

 

[tynian]

but perfect is perfect how can we say someone is perfect if we say also that he is a sinner????

 

[Theresa]

I understand what you are saying, Don and I agree. I understand what Shelby is saying, and I agree too.

Sin is wrong however God uses sin to show his glory and mercy, so in the end, sin will have glorified God, however, "shall we do evil so that good may come of it?" Sin never becomes a good.

But it is free-will and God's mysterious providence and mercy playing itself out.

 

[tynian]

Theresa, is the "you" only for me or for all the persons of this thread ???

 

[Reformationist]

God loathes sin and the sinner and their fate is written for us.

Just for the record, let me clarify that I am not implying that God likes sin but it is incongruous to not acknowledge that He uses the sinfulness of man to serve His purpose.

Perfection takes some time to attain. Why else be commanded to be perfect?

In my opinion it is imperative that we not make the unsupported theological assumption that a command equates to moral ability. In fact, the life of a Christian is one of learning to depend on the righteous grace of God in the face of our failures. Oftentimes God gives us a righteous command of His expectation partially to show us that we are incapable of achieving that expectation apart from His grace. A part of our sanctification is in learning to understand that "perfection" is something we strive for knowing that at some point, that point being our glorification, God will make that a reality but at the same time we are completely dependent on Him.

The Word clearly indicates that one who is in Christ is not in sin, if so then the author lied. If a Christian led by God's Spirit is in sin, then God's Spirit is leading the person to sin. This is another fallacy that is taught.

There is a difference between living a lifestyle of sin and sinning.

That would make God liable for man's sin. No, the man that sins is a servant to sin and Satan and his fate is known unless he repent and forsake sin.

We are not forgiven because we repent. We repent because we are forgiven. It's truly sad that you see God's GRACE of forgiveness as a result of your works of repentence. Repenting and forsaking our sinful ways is important and commanded but thanks be to the gracious Lord Almighty that that is not the basis for our forgiveness. If it was, then Christ would not have had to die for anything.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Sin is wrong however God uses sin to show his glory and mercy, so in the end, sin will have glorified God, however, "shall we do evil so that good may come of it?" Sin never becomes a good.

I completely agree with what you've said here. Let me just reiterate my agreement by clarifying that I don't mean to imply that sin is good but rather that God is greater than man's sin and most definitely uses it to fulfill His purposes.

Think about it. How could God teach any of us to be loving, or patient, or to learn to repay evil with good if we never came into contact with a sinful person?

Anyway, that was nicely put Theresa.

God bless

 

[Luchnia]

Originally posted by reformist: Just for the record, let me clarify that I am not implying that God likes sin but it is incongruous to not acknowledge that He uses the sinfulness of man to serve His purpose.

In my opinion it is imperative that we not make the unsupported theological assumption that a command equates to moral ability. In fact, the life of a Christian is one of learning to depend on the righteous grace of God in the face of our failures. Oftentimes God gives us a righteous command of His expectation partially to show us that we are incapable of achieving that expectation apart from His grace. A part of our sanctification is in learning to understand that "perfection" is something we strive for knowing that at some point, that point being our glorification, God will make that a reality but at the same time we are completely dependent on Him.

>>>>Just how much support do you need where this is concerned? There is much support in God's word to clearly show this is possible? God gave you a command to show you that you are incapable of attaining it? When did God result to this? Can you elaborate on this?


There is a difference between living a lifestyle of sin and sinning.
>>>>>In what ways is it different? Do you mean you can live among sinners and keep clean, or what do you mean by "lifestyle of sin?" Maybe you could clarify a bit more for us?


We are not forgiven because we repent. We repent because we are forgiven. It's truly sad that you see God's GRACE of forgiveness as a result of your works of repentence. Repenting and forsaking our sinful ways is important and commanded but thanks be to the gracious Lord Almighty that that is not the basis for our forgiveness. If it was, then Christ would not have had to die for anything.
>>>>>Who told you this? If God's word says repent and forsake sin, or else you perish, what part of that is not to be understood? Maybe it is not sad at all that God demands this of the sinner. I am curious, what happens to the individual if he does not repent and forsake sin? To repent and forsake is not only commanded, but it is an absolute must for eternal life. What scriptures imply that one in sin will inherit eternal life?

Word up!

 

[Benedicta00]

I completely agree with what you've said here. Let me just reiterate my agreement by clarifying that I don't mean to imply that sin is good but rather that God is greater than man's sin and most definitely uses it to fulfill His purposes.

Think about it. How could God teach any of us to be loving, or patient, or to learn to repay evil with good if we never came into contact with a sinful person?

Anyway, that was nicely put Theresa.

God bless

I agree with this too, I meant that the sin it-self does not glorify him but he can bring good out of anything.

That is what the saints knew and that is what made them great saints. They knew his mercy was greater than their sins and they allowed the grace of God to transform their sins into a path of hoilness.

 

[Theresa]

"One reason God 'has endured with much patience' the Devil's work on earth is that it ultimately contibutes to the divine glory. In God's hand, Satan is a scouring pad to polish the 'vessels of mercy' and help make them beautiful. But the Devil is also a bucket of filth that fills up the 'vessels of wrath' like chamber pots ( a crude image, but it is the Apostle's own-that is the implication of the words translated 'menial use' in vs 21).

The vessels of mercy show God's grace and His holiness. The vessels of wrath show His justice and His hatred of evil. Both types show His power: on the one hand, to save; on the other, to destroy. And both show His patience: the former because He endured so much to save them; the latter, because He put up with them so long despite their hostility toward Him. In this era between the two advents of Christ, the Devil, however unwillingly, has become God's instrument."

The Rapture Trap - Paul Thigpen