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Does science changing cause religion a problem?

digitalgoth

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Science is an iterative process, where new ideas are built on old ideas, sometimes past ideas are replaced with new ideas, and sometimes entire fields crash down and are replaced with something else.

Religion is more or less unchanging. Although interpretations may change, and occasionally translations may be challenged, the basic story of God as written doesn't change to a great extent.

When the two try to cross contaminate, where religion attempts to be found in fact, and science tries to use religion to explain natural phenomena, I'm reminded of the classic below exceprt:

Saint Augustine (A.D. 354-430) in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim)

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion." [1 Timothy 1.7]

Now clever excerpts aside, does religion not suffer by attempting to lead faith to factualism? Instead of dealing with issues of the soul, is there a danger in weakening faith by attempting to find scientific plausibility and biblical claims of literalism as it applies to science?

I bring that up, for the actual thread question. If biblical literalism is going to be used as facts to explain the world and show biblical inerrancy, removing faith as a reason, does this not suffer when science changes? Modern medicine rarely uses blood letting as a healing protocol. If scripture was used to justify the protocol originally, doesn't this cause a crisis when it is proved that, in fact, blood letting doesn't work? Is there danger in linking biblical inerrancy with scientific claims as science is in a constant change of change and flux and what the religion claimed as fact today may end up destroying the literal "facts" and leaving lack of faith behind? Isn't there an inherent danger of driving people away from the bible or at the very least, literal interpretation?
 

Merlin

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Well, literalists already have to ignore reality, twist it, or outright lie about it. So, their position can only worsen as science evolves (colloquial use of the word there, AV. Back up off my grits :p ).
literalist do not need to ignore reality. they only need to understand that what they believe may not be what the bible actually says.very often they are quoting tradition rather than bible.
 
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AV1611VET

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selfinflikted

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literalist do not need to ignore reality. they only need to understand that what they believe may not be what the bible actually says.very often they are quoting tradition rather than bible.

This could indeed be the case. Good point. :thumbsup:
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Science is an iterative process, where new ideas are built on old ideas, sometimes past ideas are replaced with new ideas, and sometimes entire fields crash down and are replaced with something else.

Religion is more or less unchanging. Although interpretations may change, and occasionally translations may be challenged, the basic story of God as written doesn't change to a great extent.

When the two try to cross contaminate, where religion attempts to be found in fact, and science tries to use religion to explain natural phenomena, I'm reminded of the classic below exceprt:

Saint Augustine (A.D. 354-430) in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim)

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion." [1 Timothy 1.7]

Now clever excerpts aside, does religion not suffer by attempting to lead faith to factualism? Instead of dealing with issues of the soul, is there a danger in weakening faith by attempting to find scientific plausibility and biblical claims of literalism as it applies to science?

I bring that up, for the actual thread question. If biblical literalism is going to be used as facts to explain the world and show biblical inerrancy, removing faith as a reason, does this not suffer when science changes? Modern medicine rarely uses blood letting as a healing protocol. If scripture was used to justify the protocol originally, doesn't this cause a crisis when it is proved that, in fact, blood letting doesn't work? Is there danger in linking biblical inerrancy with scientific claims as science is in a constant change of change and flux and what the religion claimed as fact today may end up destroying the literal "facts" and leaving lack of faith behind? Isn't there an inherent danger of driving people away from the bible or at the very least, literal interpretation?


Not in the least. At least when people stop applying Fairie Dust in their science and start understanding that: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Ro 1:20

So why does mainstream continue to ignore that energy everywhere we find it? That eternal power than can neither be created or destroyed that exists in everything. "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Col 1:17

There is no excuse actually for their ignoring it. They have simply attempted to explain the universe mechanically, and have failed repeatedly and now require you to believe in 95% Fairie Dust because they consistently ignore that energy everywhere and the effect it has.

As someone once said:

"First we have Newtownian gravity. Everything is great. Then we get better telescopes, and eventually we discover that the universe moves differently than our equations tell us.

Things get rather uncomfortable for a while.

Then Einstein comes along and solves this problem. Everything is great again.

Then we get better telescopes and eventually we discover that the universe moves differently than our equations tell us.

Things get uncomfortable again. But this time, someone comes up with a theory that 90% of the universe is made up magic "pixie dust" that cannot be directly measured in any way. It's totally invisible, but makes the equations work. Phew, dodged a bullet on that one!

Keeping Occam's Razor in mind, I submit to you that it is less likely that the universe is 90% dark matter/energy, and significantly more likely that the equations are wrong, and that psychology/sociology is more than sufficient to explain the current situation."

GR required a pseudo-tensor to fit the suns frame. That same pseudo-tensor that makes it incompatible with the rest of the universe and only relevant in the sun's frame.

Pseudotensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"There is a second meaning for pseudotensor, restricted to general relativity; tensors obey strict transformation laws, whilst pseudotensors are not so constrained. Consequently the form of a pseudotensor will, in general, change as the frame of reference is altered. An equation which holds in a frame containing pseudotensors will not necessarily hold in a different frame; this makes pseudotensors of limited relevance because equations in which they appear are not invariant in form."

But mainstream will continue to treat plasma (99% of the universe) the same as gas and dust, when they don't even treat it the same as dust and gas right here on this earth.

And because they continue to do so, they will continue to need Fairie Dust to explain away the errors in their maths.
 
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Michael

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Science is an iterative process, where new ideas are built on old ideas, sometimes past ideas are replaced with new ideas, and sometimes entire fields crash down and are replaced with something else.

Religion is more or less unchanging. Although interpretations may change, and occasionally translations may be challenged, the basic story of God as written doesn't change to a great extent.

Hmmm. I'd say your premise is somewhat flawed as evidenced by the creation and growth of Scientology in the 20th century. Furthermore the splintering of Christianity into so many various sects demonstrates that "free thinking" does play a role in both science and religion.

When the two try to cross contaminate, where religion attempts to be found in fact, and science tries to use religion to explain natural phenomena, I'm reminded of the classic below exceprt:
The only instance that "science" tries to use religion to explain natural phenomenon IMO is astronomy, whereas most branches of physics seek to explain everything via empirical physics. I don't think science typically uses religion to explain natural phenomenon. That's rarely (if ever) the case in fact.

Where "religion" gets itself in trouble is when it comes into direct conflict with empirical physics. When that happens, it *can* create a problem for religion. Unless that occurs, religion and science can live quite harmoniously IMO.

Isn't there an inherent danger of driving people away from the bible or at the very least, literal interpretation?
IMO yes there is, which is why I don't recommend a literal interpretation. :)
 
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Michael

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literalist do not need to ignore reality. they only need to understand that what they believe may not be what the bible actually says.very often they are quoting tradition rather than bible.

It's not even necessarily the longest "tradition" of Christianity however, since Catholics embrace an ancient Earth, and evolutionary theory. Typically only US Protestant "traditions" engage themselves in a *literal* interpretation of the Bible.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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literalist do not need to ignore reality. they only need to understand that what they believe may not be what the bible actually says.very often they are quoting tradition rather than bible.


But God's word is to be a "living" thing, not a static black and white on paper. That was to serve only as the basis, the foundation upon which "faith" was to be built, revealed "in latter times" by the spirit, not just words on paper. If the foundation seems to be contradicted by something else, I would say it is that persons interpretation that is the cause, not the foundation itself.

The second verse of genesis one of these tradition verses what the Bible actually says examples. Sadly tradition won out.
 
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bhsmte

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Depending on the brand of faith/religion one practices, will determine what problem science will provide for the same.

Religious beliefs as a general rule have had to adapt to what science has discovered over many many decades and people have adapted their views to accommodate the same. Others, who don't choose to accommodate science, go the route of; denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning.

As more gaps continue to close because of science, more people will need to adapt their belief structure. Some will adapt and still believe, some will get to the point of not believing any longer and others will dig in and follow the denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning path.

Long history of this and the pattern will continue.
 
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digitalgoth

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Depending on the brand of faith/religion one practices, will determine what problem science will provide for the same.

Religious beliefs as a general rule have had to adapt to what science has discovered over many many decades and people have adapted their views to accommodate the same. Others, who don't choose to accommodate science, go the route of; denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning.

As more gaps continue to close because of science, more people will need to adapt their belief structure. Some will adapt and still believe, some will get to the point of not believing any longer and others will dig in and follow the denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning path.

Long history of this and the pattern will continue.


Soooo...some religions will evolve?
 
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Michael

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Depending on the brand of faith/religion one practices, will determine what problem science will provide for the same.

Religious beliefs as a general rule have had to adapt to what science has discovered over many many decades and people have adapted their views to accommodate the same. Others, who don't choose to accommodate science, go the route of; denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning.

As more gaps continue to close because of science, more people will need to adapt their belief structure. Some will adapt and still believe, some will get to the point of not believing any longer and others will dig in and follow the denial, confirmation bias and selective reasoning path.

Long history of this and the pattern will continue.

Those very same patterns of denial, confirmation bias, and selective reasoning also play out *inside* scientific circles, until change occurs of course. :)

It's not strictly a problem of religion, it's a problem within all human beings.
 
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bhsmte

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Those very same patterns of denial, confirmation bias, and selective reasoning also play out *inside* scientific circles, until change occurs of course. :)

It's not strictly a problem of religion, it's a problem within all human beings.

I was counting down until this response came from you Michael.

We are talking about religion, not science.
 
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Gottservant

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you are setting up a dichotomy, based on a certain bias

in reality what you find is that some people like their religion to stay the same and others like it to change, then again some would like it to change and it doesn't and some would like it to stay the same and it doesn't.
 
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