Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I think you are trying to condense faith into a couple of facts. The message of faith is set upon facts, yes. But it is not the facts. It is the faith, the reliance on the Man, not simply an assent to facts.v.9 is, 'the word of faith that we preach,' Paul says. He's just spoken about his desire for the salvation of his kinsmen and v.9 is what they can do to be saved.
I think your theology is forcing you to preach two gospels. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. That you would not post v.9 would seem to be proof.
Nah. I simply dont like the way it is shallowed down in English.v.9 is, 'the word of faith that we preach,' Paul says. He's just spoken about his desire for the salvation of his kinsmen and v.9 is what they can do to be saved.
I think your theology is forcing you to preach two gospels. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. That you would not post v.9 would seem to be proof.
Show us where Paul preached verse 9 to unbelievers.
Paul goes on to say that not all have obeyed the Gospel. Even with the preachers. He then supplies the missing element: Faith. And tells us how faith comes. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing (comes) by the Word of God. The Word of God is not just words, it is a Person: Jesus. Unless Jesus is involved (via the Holy Spirit), faith (saving faith) will not be present, and no one will obey the Gospel. This completely destroys the idea that man has the natural ability to believe the Gospel. He does not.
You have agreed that no man will believe without help. That help would be the Holy Spirit and the nature of that help is regeneration, which MUST happen before saving faith can enter, via the hearing and understanding of the Gospel.
Show us where Paul preached verse 9 to unbelievers.
Paul goes on to say that not all have obeyed the Gospel. Even with the preachers. He then supplies the missing element: Faith. And tells us how faith comes. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing (comes) by the Word of God. The Word of God is not just words, it is a Person: Jesus. Unless Jesus is involved (via the Holy Spirit), faith (saving faith) will not be present, and no one will obey the Gospel. This completely destroys the idea that man has the natural ability to believe the Gospel. He does not.
You have agreed that no man will believe without help. That help would be the Holy Spirit and the nature of that help is regeneration, which MUST happen before saving faith can enter, via the hearing and understanding of the Gospel.
You read the reason why. Pauls is a listing of the facts, he already knows they rely on Christ.
Or are you claiming only knowledge gets you "in?" Do people know, who are nevertheless opposed to Christ?
I think you are trying to condense faith into a couple of facts. The message of faith is set upon facts, yes. But it is not the facts. It is the faith, the reliance on the Man, not simply an assent to facts.
Nah. I simply dont like the way it is shallowed down in English.
Even in Greek, it isn't a couple of facts. That first item in Greek is a commitment. So it is actually pretty good if translated better.
But it is not a plea. In fact it is further away from a plea. It is a statement of whose side you're on. It is something that will be offensive to most unbelievers of the time. It is a subversion of Caesar.
Do you even comprehend the problem of cherry picking one sentence as the gospel? Think about telling a polytheist what Paul is saying. He also might have no problem: "Oh, just like Apollos raising the Sun. I gotcha, I sacrifice to Apollo too."
"Eh, no."
Show us where Paul preached verse 9 to unbelievers.
Are you done with your diatribe and accusations? How you could make some of them shows just how desperate you are to gain some sort of victory over Calvinists.
I never said that Paul did not preach verse 9 to unbelievers. That is your made-up false accusation. Show me where I ever made that statement. I am asking you to back up your assertions and accusation with more than just words.
You seem to have this odd notion that the idea of particular atonement presents some sort of problem to preaching the gospel. What you are ignoring is that verse 9 can be preached to unbelievers, and unless the Holy Spirit specifically and deliberately opens their hearts (via regeneration) to hear and understand, they will reject it and therefore not believe and not be saved.
The Atonement has nothing directly to do with that. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole, and then getting upset with Calvinists when it doesn't fit and won't go in. In some circles, this would be classified as a 'Tempest in a Teapot'.
Also, consider that verse 9 is in the form 'If A, and B, then C'. It is a statement of the certainty of what will happen (C), once the conditions are present (A and B). C will not happen unless A and B are both present. A and B cannot be faked. They must be genuine for C to occur. It is not some incantation or set of magic words. You can't just say the words and expect the result. There is more to it than that. Unless the Holy Spirit is actively involved (which is as He chooses), merely saying the words, or mumbling some 'sinner's prayer' will not result in Salvation.
Now, how about you retract your more egregious allegations, and take a deep breath (several of them), and let's discuss this rationally, instead of like we were having a paintball fight.
No diatribe nbf.
Why question that he did with this then: 'Show us where Paul preached verse 9 to unbelievers'?
It does present a problem for Calvinists. As a Calvinist you will tell those whom you deem non-elect to believe in Christ's resurrection which God never intended for their justification. That is inappropriate.
We know you don't know who the non-elect are - so it is incumbent on the Calvinist to qualify his gospel. Trouble is, Paul doesn't.
Paul tells us that Christ was raised up for our justification - that is part of the atonement. The unsaved are enjoined to believe in the resurrection.
Moses says it is, 'not too difficult or beyond your reach'; unconditional election says it will not happen.
I repeat - enjoining someone who might be non-elect (as per your view) to believe in that which is salvifically irrelevant is inappropriate...unless of course you speak candidly about election and limited atonement.
Paul did not.
I apologise that I assumed.
You were the one trying to make a big deal out that. I just wanted you to back up the rhetoric. Doesn't look like you can.
Inappropriate? For whom? The underlying assumption you hold here appears to be that the unsaved are neutral with regard to the Gospel, only needing information to make a decision about it. That is unbiblical in the extreme! Elsewhere you have admitted that no one will believe without the help of the Holy Spirit. You cannot have it both ways. Yet you seem to be trying to.
Oh, so now we need a disclaimer? What kind of nonsense is this???
And unless the Holy Spirit opens their hearts and minds (via regeneration) they won't believe in the resurrection, or any of the rest of the Gospel, at least not in any salvific way. So what's yer problem?
Who was Moses talking to?
Again with demanding that Calvinists provide a disclaimer...Horse-hockey!
What do you mean by "salvifically irrelevant"? What part of the gospel is "salvifically irrelevant"???
Nor would he have if you had tried to tell him this baloney! His reply might have been along the lines of "Get thee behind...."
OK, let's be clear here. Is this Calvinist theology or not?The so-called anomaly is a creation of your own mind, born out of some clear misunderstandings of Calvinist theology, and a desire to discredit that theology, because you don't like it.
No, janx was demonstrating that Paul wasn't a Calvinist.So, according to what you've said, Calvinists, to be consistent, must provide a disclaimer when they preach the Gospel, or they have no integrity.
Paul never did,so according to that reasoning, Paul had no integrity.
That reason doesn't prove LA in the slightest. Because Calvinism believes that Christ ONLY died for the elect would one think that reason proves LA.The fact you refuse to face is that, like it or not, the Atonement is limited, for the simple reason that not all are saved.
The fault lies within each person. Some reject God's promise, others accept it. There is no inherent difference between those who believe and those who don't, even though Calvinists vainly try to demonstrate that there is.We can argue all day long about the 'why' of that, but at the end of the day, the fact remains, that not all are saved. That is not the fault of Calvinism, nor is it the fault of Arminianism.
I never said that Paul did not preach verse 9 to unbelievers. That is your made-up false accusation. Show me where I ever made that statement. I am asking you to back up your assertions and accusation with more than just words.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?