Does Qur'an Teach Violence?

[InnerPhyre]

Perhaps I'm a bit confused here. Innerphyre, you got quite defensive about the catholic church and her traditions during the election of the new pope, and yet here, you're saying, eh these traditions are not so important? You're willing to fight tooth and nail over aborition, but not for this church doctrine?

I linked to the Catholic Catecism because you appeared to be disowning Augustine's Just War doctrine. It wasn't a lecture, mearly a reminder, and an fyi for non catholics out there who may not be familiar with this doctrine. Isn't the catechism authoritative teachings of the church?

Never did I say we should always fight a war. My argument here is that your church allows war to be fought in certain circumstances, which is contradictory to the statements made earlier that christians are never to fight.

And, as a muslim, I constantly strive to find a balance between justice and mercy. My screen name here means mercy, and before I start just about anything, I say Bismillah irRahman irRahim, in the name of God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. Islam is about finding that balance between justice and mercy.

The Just War doctrine developed when Rome became Christianized and the idea of having a pacifist Roman Empire was not practical, so Augustine and a few others fudged up a doctrine that he felt would make all sides equally happy. I defend the Holy Traditions of the Church, not the man-made ones.

 

[rahma]

So you disagree with this official vatican document?

 

[InnerPhyre]

Allow me to clarify. We are required to believe that a just war can exist. I acknowledge that such a war could, in theory, exist. As I said before, even if a war was just, I do not believe it is the place of a Christian to fight in it. We are not required to believe that any war that has ever existed was just. I do not believe that the wars that were going on at the time Augustine were just, and as such, I disagree with his rationalization of them, which has lead many Christians to jump into war when they should not.

 

[Cassandra]

SKY80: As a matter of interest, what do you think of Abortion Clinic Bombings, Religious Hate Crimes (ie; killing/beating homosexuals in the name of God), and other atrocities committed in our MODERN day in the name of the Christian God? Do these people represent all Christians (as you seem to think suicide bombers represent all Isalm) or are they just bad apples? What is your reasoning?


As to the OP: I've never read the Qur'an. So I can't make a comment. Judging by the muslim people I have met, I would have to say "no". Either that, or they aren't following it.

 

[SKY80]

SKY80: As a matter of interest, what do you think of Abortion Clinic Bombings, Religious Hate Crimes (ie; killing/beating homosexuals in the name of God), and other atrocities committed in our MODERN day in the name of the Christian God? Do these people represent all Christians (as you seem to think suicide bombers represent all Isalm) or are they just bad apples? What is your reasoning?


As to the OP: I've never read the Qur'an. So I can't make a comment. Judging by the muslim people I have met, I would have to say "no". Either that, or they aren't following it.

I have never seen a part of the bible in which it says kil gays or unbeleivers.
The Qu'ran does, it is so easy as you have tried to point the finger at someone else and say look they do it to, sin besets sin....i dont think Nick Berg or anyone of the other people who got their heads hacked off by ISLAMIC followers while they yelled Allah is great, were guilty of any crimes were they? NO they didnt beleive in Islam and therefore according to the Qu'ran they were infidels and were deemed as a threat to the islamic faith therefore he "deserved" to die.........

 

[rahma]

I have never seen a part of the bible in which it says kil gays or unbeleivers.

Really? Remember, these are laws from God, and even if you claim they don't apply today, they're still from God.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

The Qu'ran does, it is so easy as you have tried to point the finger at someone else and say look they do it to, sin besets sin....i dont think Nick Berg or anyone of the other people who got their heads hacked off by ISLAMIC followers while they yelled Allah is great, were guilty of any crimes were they? NO they didnt beleive in Islam and therefore according to the Qu'ran they were infidels and were deemed as a threat to the islamic faith therefore he "deserved" to die.........

Had Nick Berg or any of the other victims of these terrorists been in Iraq pre-war, they would not have been harmed. Margaret Hassan worked in Iraq for more than a decade, and it is only after the war that she was killed. These killers were muslim before the war, so what changed? Not their faith, they were always muslim. Their country was invaded, and that is why they did these things, not because they woke up one day and said, let's kill non muslims.

Margaret Hassan was muslim, so why was she killed? Many muslim men, women and children have been killed in Iraq by their own. Why were they killed? Because they were not muslim? Puleez.

 

[SKY80]

Really? Remember, these are laws from God, and even if you claim they don't apply today, they're still from God.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.




Had Nick Berg or any of the other victims of these terrorists been in Iraq pre-war, they would not have been harmed. Margaret Hassan worked in Iraq for more than a decade, and it is only after the war that she was killed. These killers were muslim before the war, so what changed? Not their faith, they were always muslim. Their country was invaded, and that is why they did these things, not because they woke up one day and said, let's kill non muslims.

Margaret Hassan was muslim, so why was she killed? Many muslim men, women and children have been killed in Iraq by their own. Why were they killed? Because they were not muslim? Puleez.

You quote the old testament God came to earth in the form of the Living Christ to teach the world his laws, Christ said to many of things you mention.
"you have heard...But I tell you the truth"....The bible once said in teh OT a eye for a eye tooth for a tooth, but christ taught us to love our enemies as our freinds and to turn the other cheeck ( not to chop off their heads and issue a holy war or issus a fatwa) yet even in the scripture you quote from the bible tell me how does that compare to the scripture of the qu'ran that speaks of killing non beleivers and dying a martyr to receive virgins in heaven????

You make the excuse that if these people were not in Iraq then they wouldnt have been killed?? you also bring up the point that many Muslim women and children have been killed during the declared fatwa and holy war against non-islamic beleivers, that alone shows that islam is NOT a peaceful faith, If these followers of Islam dont even hold sacred the lives of fellow muslims then whose lives do they value????
I also dont understand how clerics and other muslim leaders can declare a holy war isnt that a oxymoron? a Holy war huh???

why arent the leaders of Islam condemming these killings more vocally then they do now? it is common sense that if you sit there and allow something as horrible as murder to take place then you are also guilty....
Islam is not peaceful, it is full of hate for those who will not conform to the faith, be it the marine barracks in lebonon, the USS cole, WTC in 1991, or 9-11 Islam has proven itself to not be peaceful or tolerant.

 

[rahma]

Since nothing I say seems to make it through your impervious wall of muslim stereotypes, I see no point in continuing this conversation. If christians bash muslims but deny what is written in their old testament, conversations go nowhere.



اللَّهُمَّ أَنْتَ رَبِّى لاَ إِلهَ إِلاَ أَنْتَ ، خَلَقْتَنِى وَ أنَا عَبْدُكَ وَ أنَا عَلَى عَهْدِكَ ما اسْتَطَعْتُ ، أعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ شَرِ مَا صَنَعْت ، أَبُوءُ لَكَ بِنِعْمَتِكَ عَلَىَّ وَ أبُوءُ بِذَنْبى فَاغْفِرْ لِى فإِنَّهُ لاَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ إِلَّا أَنْتَ

Allahumma anta Rabbi la ilaha illa anta, Anta Khalaqtani wa ana abduka, wa ana 'ala ahdika wa wa'dika mastata'tu, A'udhu bika min Sharri ma sana'tu, abu'u Laka bini'matika 'alaiya, wa Abu Laka bidhanbi faghfirli innahu la yaghfiru adhdhunuba illa anta

 

[Cassandra]

I have never seen a part of the bible in which it says kil gays or unbeleivers.
The Qu'ran does, it is so easy as you have tried to point the finger at someone else and say look they do it to, sin besets sin....i dont think Nick Berg or anyone of the other people who got their heads hacked off by ISLAMIC followers while they yelled Allah is great, were guilty of any crimes were they? NO they didnt beleive in Islam and therefore according to the Qu'ran they were infidels and were deemed as a threat to the islamic faith therefore he "deserved" to die.........

I am not saying "look, they do it too.". Way to misread what I wrote, love. I asked your opinion on Christians who, in the name of God, commit atrocities in our modern age. People keep mentioning the crusades, which you dismiss as being ancient. So I'm bringing up modern atrocities and asking your opinion of those who commit them and why they are (presumably) bad apples and all other Christians are really great and loving, whereas one bad apple spoils the bunch as far as Islam goes.

I'm trying to understand your stance and reasons, lest I accuse you of a double standard.

Oh, and it should be mentioned that bringing up another group's atrocities is not meant to indicate "they did it too!", but to stress that there are bad apples in every group and they do not represent the group as a whole.

 

[SKY80]

Since nothing I say seems to make it through your impervious wall of muslim stereotypes, I see no point in continuing this conversation. If christians bash muslims but deny what is written in their old testament, conversations go nowhere.



اللَّهُمَّ أَنْتَ رَبِّى لاَ إِلهَ إِلاَ أَنْتَ ، خَلَقْتَنِى وَ أنَا عَبْدُكَ وَ أنَا عَلَى عَهْدِكَ ما اسْتَطَعْتُ ، أعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ شَرِ مَا صَنَعْت ، أَبُوءُ لَكَ بِنِعْمَتِكَ عَلَىَّ وَ أبُوءُ بِذَنْبى فَاغْفِرْ لِى فإِنَّهُ لاَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ إِلَّا أَنْتَ

Allahumma anta Rabbi la ilaha illa anta, Anta Khalaqtani wa ana abduka, wa ana 'ala ahdika wa wa'dika mastata'tu, A'udhu bika min Sharri ma sana'tu, abu'u Laka bini'matika 'alaiya, wa Abu Laka bidhanbi faghfirli innahu la yaghfiru adhdhunuba illa anta

Rhama,
Its not that i have a wall of stereotypes about Muslims its that I have ben given reasons by muslims themselves as to why islam is not peaceful ( chopping off heads, airplanes into buildings, Homicide bombings etc etc..)

here are some more worthwhile questions ( reloaded):

You make the excuse that if these people were not in Iraq then they wouldnt have been killed?? you also bring up the point that many Muslim women and children have been killed during the declared fatwa and holy war against non-islamic beleivers, that alone shows that islam is NOT a peaceful faith, If these followers of Islam dont even hold sacred the lives of fellow muslims then whose lives do they value????
I also dont understand how clerics and other muslim leaders can declare a holy war isnt that a oxymoron? a Holy war huh???

why arent the leaders of Islam condemming these killings more vocally then they do now? it is common sense that if you sit there and allow something as horrible as murder to take place then you are also guilty....
Islam is not peaceful, it is full of hate for those who will not conform to the faith, be it the marine barracks in lebonon, the USS cole, WTC in 1991, or 9-11 Islam has proven itself to not be peaceful or tolerant.

 

[SKY80]

I am not saying "look, they do it too.". Way to misread what I wrote, love. I asked your opinion on Christians who, in the name of God, commit atrocities in our modern age. People keep mentioning the crusades, which you dismiss as being ancient. So I'm bringing up modern atrocities and asking your opinion of those who commit them and why they are (presumably) bad apples and all other Christians are really great and loving, whereas one bad apple spoils the bunch as far as Islam goes.

I'm trying to understand your stance and reasons, lest I accuse you of a double standard.

Oh, and it should be mentioned that bringing up another group's atrocities is not meant to indicate "they did it too!", but to stress that there are bad apples in every group and they do not represent the group as a whole.

how many " bad apples " have you heard of in Christinity ( modern) percentage wise it is almost non-measurable, yet everytime we turn on the news BOOOOM!!!! another homicide bomb, car bombs, train bomb, planes into buildings, hostages pleading for their lives only to have their heads chopped off like a pig at slaughter, this is why Islam has proven itself to not be peaceful.

 

[Bin Qasim]

I ask you one question, regrettably, sky80 that is where you see muslim leaders, who they are? If you look around you will not find even 1. I do accept that at the time, we lack leadership of a learned person.
And about raising our voices against suicide attacks, etc, we try our best to do so. Suicide is haraam. Attacking innocent people at War times is haraam. what else you need to know?

 

[Cassandra]

how many " bad apples " have you heard of in Christinity ( modern) percentage wise it is almost non-measurable, yet everytime we turn on the news BOOOOM!!!! another homicide bomb, car bombs, train bomb, planes into buildings, hostages pleading for their lives only to have their heads chopped off like a pig at slaughter, this is why Islam has proven itself to not be peaceful.

I wouldn't know about that. Would you happen to have a figure (and cite your source, please)? I think it is unfortunate that we hardly hear about the good things people do. Violence and crime and sex and what gets ratings. But when you are talking about these atrocties committed by muslims, you do realize you are talking about a small percentage of the muslim community, right?

 

[Muslim]

how many " bad apples " have you heard of in Christinity ( modern) percentage wise it is almost non-measurable, yet everytime we turn on the news BOOOOM!!!! another homicide bomb, car bombs, train bomb, planes into buildings, hostages pleading for their lives only to have their heads chopped off like a pig at slaughter, this is why Islam has proven itself to not be peaceful.

The reason why you see only violence committed by Muslims on television is because your government has decided to focus on that specifically due to them being in a war with Muslim countries and a global war on "terrorism". However there are even more violence being committed by Christians in Africa, South America and Europe. There is a huge war taking place in the Congo yet you don't hear about that. Why? Because your one of those 70% or more Americans who only get their news from the television. If I were you I would seriously try to gain more perspective on whats happening around the world rather than just listening to what your government tells your through their media, because it serves a propoganda tool for them.

 

[SKY80]

The reason why you see only violence committed by Muslims on television is because your government has decided to focus on that specifically due to them being in a war with Muslim countries and a global war on "terrorism". However there are even more violence being committed by Christians in Africa, South America and Europe. There is a huge war taking place in the Congo yet you don't hear about that. Why? Because your one of those 70% or more Americans who only get their news from the television. If I were you I would seriously try to gain more perspective on whats happening around the world rather than just listening to what your government tells your through their media, because it serves a propoganda tool for them.

and AL-Jeezera isnt a talking head for terrorists....? come on if you want to talk about propaganda lets be honest...

 

[sefroth77]

If Islam is removed from this earth. The world would be much peaceful. Islam is another ideolgy just like Nazism and Communism. As a infidel just step into mecca, go to the holy-site and you'll see the real islam. Most Likely you'll be beheaded

 

[rahul_sharma]

The reason why you see only violence committed by Muslims on television is because your government has decided to focus on that specifically due to them being in a war with Muslim countries and a global war on "terrorism". However there are even more violence being committed by Christians in Africa, South America and Europe. There is a huge war taking place in the Congo yet you don't hear about that. Why? Because your one of those 70% or more Americans who only get their news from the television. If I were you I would seriously try to gain more perspective on whats happening around the world rather than just listening to what your government tells your through their media, because it serves a propoganda tool for them.

I dont hear or listen to American or British media.
Indian media is very powerful, secular and independent ...now dont blame that Indian media is also biased. The reality is muslims are really involved in most of the deadly voilence around the world.
I believe this is a small voilent community in your religion which has sucessfully hijacked religion of Islam in absence of opposition by liberal/common Muslims.

 

[rahma]

The reality is muslims are really involved in most of the deadly voilence around the world.

Muslims are in the violence that the media choses to cover. I would assert that the Ugandan War and the war in the Democratic Republic of Congo are the sources of the most deadly violence in the world. But then again, no one outside of Africa cares about these things, because, well, it's Africa, and what does Africa have to do with the rest of the world?

 

[Arthra]

My own feeling is that violence in any context that takes large numbers of human life should be the concern of all, so Africa is as importnat as New York, Delhi or Katmandu and we should be working for a stronger World Community or government that can respond to these issues and sort out the trouble if needed.

Unfortunately we have powerful nations that can still choose to ignore what's going on or precipitate crises and escape legal consequences. But history I think will be a severe judge as it is easier today to document what's going on and you can't really stiffle important news stories as in the past.

 

[brother andrew]

no