Does Palestine have any right to any land in the Middle-East?

[J.B.]

Religion does not sovereignty make! Israel is now amongst the countries that have committed genocide and crimes against humanity. Israel will one day have to answer to these most hienous of crimes.

If you have no religious beliefs, I can understand why you think the way you do. It shuts out completely the notion of a religious legitimacy to a country's existence. However, as I am of the faith of Jesus Christ, I believe the way I do regarding Israel's legitimacy. God justifies the existence of Israel, for his chosen people, and also for those of the Christian faith in the world to come. As it is now, Judaism does not understand this pro-Israel Christian perspective well, even though they may tolerate the presence of Christians in Israel, but it will be revealed to them completely by the second coming of Christ to Earth. By that point, the Jewish people will effectively be Christians, believing in Jesus of Nazareth as their long awaited Messiah, as well as Gentiles.

 

[Yekcidmij]

If you have no religious beliefs, I can understand why you think the way you do. It shuts out completely the notion of a religious legitimacy to a country's existence. However, as I am of the faith of Jesus Christ, I believe the way I do regarding Israel's legitimacy. God justifies the existence of Israel, for his chosen people, and also for those of the Christian faith in the world to come. As it is now, Judaism does not understand this pro-Israel Christian perspective well, even though they may tolerate the presence of Christians in Israel, but it will be revealed to them completely by the second coming of Christ to Earth. By that point, the Jewish people will effectively be Christians, believing in Jesus of Nazareth as their long awaited Messiah, as well as Gentiles.

Do you believe Palestinians have a right to private property?

 

[J.B.]

Do you believe Palestinians have a right to private property?

On a person-by-person basis, perhaps. I especially believe that Israel should regard Arabic Christians and those of other origins well, and with the ability to maintain private property. I cannot trust Muslims enough for every one of them in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to have equality. Not everything Israel does is right, as it is prone to human errors and sin, but ultimately, I believe it is a state especially blessed and chosen by God. I am willing to trust Israel to largely make the right decisions for their nation, as well as believe that some mistakes may be made.

 

[Albion]

This is why I have a hard time talking you seriously at all.

Generalizations based on no fact, based on a skewed viewpoint and little in the way of fact to back up that claim.

I'd like to see you facts that the ENTIRE Palestinian population as declared that they wish to kill Jews simply for being Jews and in their own native lands.

If you can't provide that proof that EVERY Palestinian wants that, then maybe, just maybe you should stop with the misreprentations and suppositions and research things out a bit more.

You do flatter me by recognizing that I live in the real world and not some sixth grade social studies class.

So long as there is a single resident who disagrees with their government, you suggest that no one can make any judgment about that government's actions. How fond. How idealistic. How Utopian.

Well, these people elected Hamas as their government, knowing full well what their policies were and would be. They cheer at every atrocity. Public opinion polls show an overwhelming support for Hamas's actions, even now. And when a country goes to war, it's victims are not going to do nothing...so long as a single person on the other side might be suspected of not favoring their own government's actions.

We didn't say that about any government we faced in any of our wars, and no one else does, either. But it's a great notion...if you are convinced that it's the epitome of morality to see your neighbors and countrymen blown to bits because of their religion while you do nothing but philosophize.

 

[mzungu]

You do flatter me by recognizing that I live in the real world and not some sixth grade social studies class.

So long as there is a single resident who disagrees with their government, you suggest that no one can make any judgment about that government's actions. How fond. How idealistic. How Utopian.

Well, these people elected Hamas as their government, knowing full well what their policies were and would be. They cheer at every atrocity. Public opinion polls show an overwhelming support for Hamas's actions, even now. And when a country goes to war, it's victims are not going to do nothing...so long as a single person on the other side might be suspected of not favoring their own government's actions.

We didn't say that about any government we faced in any of our wars, and no one else does, either. But it's a great notion...if you are convinced that it's the epitome of morality to see your neighbors and countrymen blown to bits because of their religion while you do nothing but philosophize.

How does one consider it "philosophising" when another speaks out against the genocide of the Palestinians?

 

[Yekcidmij]

On a person-by-person basis, perhaps. I especially believe that Israel should regard Arabic Christians and those of other origins well, and with the ability to maintain private property. I cannot trust Muslims enough for every one of them in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to have equality

Ok. It's somewhat appalling that you would deny people basic human rights based on where they reside. That doesn't seem just.

I do want to point out that this is inconsistent with the principles behind the American Revolution where it was believed that all men are created equal and are endowed by God with certain rights.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.​

Virginia Declaration of Rights Section 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.​

 

[Albion]

How does one consider it "philosophising" when another speaks out against the genocide of the Palestinians?

That wasn't the issue. I was referring to the strange notion that so long as a single person in the enemy country disagrees with the war being waged against its neighbor, the country being attacked has no right to defend itself. That's not a proposition that can be taken seriously, although it sounds great when we all are acting as nothing but armchair philosophers.

 

[J.B.]

Ok. It's somewhat appalling that you would deny people basic human rights based on where they reside. That doesn't seem just.

I do want to point out that this is inconsistent with the principles behind the American Revolution where it was believed that all men are created equal and are endowed by God with certain rights.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.​

Virginia Declaration of Rights Section 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.​

The American Revolution primarily concerned people of Christian beliefs, as well far less conventional Deists, Agnostics, and even Atheists, although others were officially tolerated by the state. The early United States was still mostly a Christian country for all but official purposes, until around the 20th century, by which point secularism had become more apparent. The religious tolerance policy made sense up until fairly recently, around the later mid-20th and late 20th century, when those of different religions immigrated to the United States in such large numbers. During the 1700s and 1800s, there were very few pagans that were considered citizens of the United States, and very few in Europe as well, not enough for them to cause such instability and make demands to the state and people of their new nation of residence. Remember, that continued largely until fairly recently.

I cannot justify offering Islam the same respect I have for my own Christian faith, or Judaism, which I believe is very compatible with predominantly Christian societies. Islam is evil, as evidenced by the acts of not only the numerous extremists that have committed crimes, but also the Koran available to be read by any Muslim. If the United States could make one exception to their religious freedom clause, it must consist of all forms of Islam. I want the Western nations, including Israel, to stop the immigration of those with an Islamic religious background, as they are hastening the downfall of Western Civilization, including much unrest in what could otherwise be more stable countries. Sweden, France, Britain, Germany, Israel, and the United States all largely face these problems, as well as plenty of other countries. However, it is important for you to consider that I ultimately desire that as many Muslims as possible abandon their Mohammedan beliefs, and become Christians. I do not hate the people, but Islam itself is contemptible. Sadly, most of them will be unable to escape the grasp that Islam has over their lives. There are thankfully brave Christians willing to make self-sacrifices in the ways of safety and comfort, in order to minister to these people who would otherwise be unreached. I never advocate for them to be murdered, far be it from me to do so, but Israel's conflict with Hamas-led Gaza is another war in which multiple civilians have been susceptible to being caught in the crossfire, and killed. Many more casualties may almost certainly follow.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Tzaousios

AMEN to that! It is absolutely heart-breaking how Evangelical Christians and their pastors rail to no end about Muslim Palestinians and throw on their yamulka and waive the Israeli flag in support of people who would spit on them if they walked down the Jerusalem street.

All the while they ignore the Christians who have been living there since the time of the Apostles.
The idea seems to be that Israeli Jews are grandfathered into the system as honorary "Christians" (because of the requirements of Dispensationalist eschatology), while the Orthodox and Catholic Christians in the area are thrown under the bus because they are not "True Christians™."

Does this mean I am for the killing of Israelis and Jews? No. Does this mean I am in favor of Hamas? No. The Palestinian and Syrian Christians are being caught in the middle of this and are in grave danger of being wiped out.
​

It is Hamas who wants to wipe out Jews. The Jews are Gods people, and no the church does not replace Israel. How would you like rockets fired on your country?
I believe you need an atiude adjustment.

May God bless, John

Predictably, you are repeating the same assumptions that you have derived from an insular Evangelical environment and because of the demands of Dispensational eschatology. How about you address the specifics of my reply?

Well, at least he didn't call you anti-Jewish/semitic, ......at least not yet
Fortunately, that Zionist doctrine is going the way of the Do-Do bird.....

Dispensationalism

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture.......

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. My own experience bears witness to the truth of what I say.............

http://www.christianforums.com/t1514356-8/#post14966798
Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism

I wanted to open a thread to discuss the nature of Replacement Theology, and how it plays a role in anti-Semitism. I shall give a definition of said doctrine, and then demonstrate how it leads into anti-Semitism.

I make one request: in the attempts to rebut my statements and sources, I ask that you utilize BOTH statements AND sources. We are not here to discuss opinions ONLY. If you refuse to follow my one request, then you can expect silence.

Replacement Theology is also called Supersessionism. It is a "New" Testament doctrinal belief that has no support in the Tanakh (i.e. "Old" Testament).

Here are some definitions of Replacement Theology:

http://www.familybible.org/Articles/...s/ReplTheo.htm

Originally Posted by article

For those who are not familiar with the term “Replacement Theology,” it is the heretical teaching that God, Who cannot lie and Who never changes, has arbitrarily cancelled the “everlasting covenants” that He made with Avraham, Yitzhak, and Ya`akov, and with “their descendants forever,” and has transferred those promises to the Gentile “church.”
​

Error of Replacement Theology

Originally Posted by article

Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. What are its premises?

Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former.


The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.

​

I am inclined to believe that it is obvious from this small amount of information that Replacement Theology is anti-Semitic. I realize that this is simply an opinion. So, the next section will be sources that share this opinion.

According to www.m-w.com, anti-semitic has the following definition:

: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

hostility is defined as:

1 a : deep-seated usually mutual ill will b (1) : hostile action (2) plural : overt acts of warfare : WAR
2 : conflict, opposition, or resistance in thought or principle
synonym see ENMITY

*of which I will be utilizing number 2.

and discrimination is defined as:

1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>

*of which I will be utilizing number 3.

I will go in reverse order this time, and start with wiki.


.

 

[Percivale]

It was wrong of Israel to take private property away from individual Palestinians, and if they had not done so there would be more peace in the Middle East. However, as a nation Israel has a right to exist, even more so now that they have survived over half a century and are the most prosperous nation in the area. I believe Israel should work toward integrating Palestinians into Israeli society and giving them equal rights, perhaps give them more land individually too. This will not be easy, but is the right long term solution.

 

[Scandinavian97]

Sam Harris has just defended Israel. He's not a biased Christian conservative.

 

[Zeek]

It was wrong of Israel to take private property away from individual Palestinians, and if they had not done so there would be more peace in the Middle East. However, as a nation Israel has a right to exist, even more so now that they have survived over half a century and are the most prosperous nation in the area. I believe Israel should work toward integrating Palestinians into Israeli society and giving them equal rights, perhaps give them more land individually too. This will not be easy, but is the right long term solution.

If Gaza is a model of what Israel can expect when giving land and leaving the area, I don't think they will be that keen on a repeat performance....and I don't think one can say that Abbas and his cronies are more amenable, because a regime change could happen within days and the next thing you know Hizbollah or worse still Isis are on your doorstep seeking to separate your head from its neck in Allah's name.

 

[Alive_Again]

It was wrong of Israel to take private property away from individual Palestinians, and if they had not done so there would be more peace in the Middle East. However, as a nation Israel has a right to exist, even more so now that they have survived over half a century and are the most prosperous nation in the area. I believe Israel should work toward integrating Palestinians into Israeli society and giving them equal rights, perhaps give them more land individually too. This will not be easy, but is the right long term solution.

Israel was given a set amount of land by the British (who took it by conquest). That's the same way the land has gone back and forth (just like many other nations). The stronger takes it.

The British set up what they had decided before 1948, to give the Jews a land of their own, where they wouldn't get beat up on all over the world as they have for millennia.

They were immediately invaded by the surrounding nations. They would not tolerate Israel. Israel won and conflict with those who philosophically will not allow Israel to exist. They're "mixed in" with all of the so-called peace loving Arabs. They are the reason why the people who live in the area suffer. They send rockets over. It might be Israel showing the crying children, etc., if their bombs successfully hit the targets they hoped to hit. They sent them first.

All of those nations in that region didn't even exist. They were territories that came under a mandate and countries like Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia came into existence. The Palestinians were given a region in Jordan, but a group moved into Jordan (terrorists) instead and took all of the money and kept the Palestinians in a state of flux. They refused to assimilate them.

Israel has been very fair and will even go as far as recognizing 2 states within their territory. But you can't stop the freaks over their who can't handle Israel at all who have weapons and are funded by richer nations like Iran and even Saudi Arabia.

Since the people won't rise up to put them down, they have to pay the price for allowing them to exist. BTW, many Palestinians celebrate in the streets (giving out candy) when an Israeli dies for the cause. In many ways, they are getting what they deserve. Sad that the children must bear the sins of their parents.

If you're integrating Palestinians into their police force, you end up with bombings. Israel btw, give the Arab world more benefits than they get anywhere else.

You can pray for a solution or mercy for both peoples, but Israel will always be surrounded by wild asses of men who want to do them in. It's not the busines of the US or other countries to tell them what to do. They've taken it on the chin everywhere for a long time, and that time is over.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Israel was given a set amount of land by the British (who took it by conquest). That's the same way the land has gone back and forth (just like many other nations). The stronger takes it.

I guess that makes it ok then. Sure, it's slightly psychopathic, thievery, and barbaric, but it's ok as long as you can get away with it.

Your quote here has to be one of the worst arguments regarding what's right and wrong, and certainly not how a christian should view right and wrong.

They were immediately invaded by the surrounding nations.

That's oversimplifying a little history. For one, it ignores the previous years of fighting in '47-'48 before the Brits left. For another, it forgets the Jewish insurgent's activity leading up to the war. It ignores the UN carving up land people had been living on....

 

[Digout]

Well, at least he didn't call you anti-Jewish/semitic, ......at least not yet
Fortunately, that Zionist doctrine is going the way of the Do-Do bird.....

Dispensationalism

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture.......

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. My own experience bears witness to the truth of what I say.............

http://www.christianforums.com/t1514356-8/#post14966798
Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism

I wanted to open a thread to discuss the nature of Replacement Theology, and how it plays a role in anti-Semitism. I shall give a definition of said doctrine, and then demonstrate how it leads into anti-Semitism.

I make one request: in the attempts to rebut my statements and sources, I ask that you utilize BOTH statements AND sources. We are not here to discuss opinions ONLY. If you refuse to follow my one request, then you can expect silence.

Replacement Theology is also called Supersessionism. It is a "New" Testament doctrinal belief that has no support in the Tanakh (i.e. "Old" Testament).

Here are some definitions of Replacement Theology:

http://www.familybible.org/Articles/...s/ReplTheo.htm

Error of Replacement Theology




I am inclined to believe that it is obvious from this small amount of information that Replacement Theology is anti-Semitic. I realize that this is simply an opinion. So, the next section will be sources that share this opinion.

According to www.m-w.com, anti-semitic has the following definition:

: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

hostility is defined as:

*of which I will be utilizing number 3.

I will go in reverse order this time, and start with wiki.
.

Replacement theology is closer to the truth, but Dispensational theology is for the deluded! Jesus makes that very clear:

Matthew 21

43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.


Matthew 23
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Blood lineage has no value with the blood covenant of Jesus.

Jews are good in business, but very bad in spiritual matters!

 

[Albion]

I guess that makes it ok then. Sure, it's slightly psychopathic, thievery, and barbaric, but it's ok as long as you can get away with it.

That's essentially what the Palestinian terrorists' claim is, wouldn't we say? Kill all the Jews and take the land. Or should it be take the land AND THEN kill all the Jews?

 

[mzungu]

That's essentially what the Palestinian terrorists' claim is, wouldn't we say? Kill all the Jews and take the land. Or should it be take the land AND THEN kill all the Jews?

The palestinians are fighting for their freedom while Israel is the real terrorist. Israel must be held accountable for crimes against humanity and genocide. I am not anti semite just anti fascism.

 

[Albion]

The palestinians are fighting for their freedom

What freedom? They live under an absolute dictatorship of a terrorist organization. And who among them do you fantasize are "fighting" against Hamas?

I am not anti semite just anti fascism.

Then you might consider opposing the fascists once in awhile. Israel, like her or not, is the only democracy in the Middle East--and fascism by definition is not democratic.

 

[mzungu]

What freedom? They live under an absolute dictatorship of a terrorist organization. And who among them do you fantasize are "fighting" against Hamas?



Then you might consider opposing the fascists once in awhile. Israel, like her or not, is the only democracy in the Middle East--and fascism by definition is not democratic.

Israel is a democracy only to her people. To the palestinians she is the epitome of an oppressor!

 

[Albion]

Israel is a democracy only to her people. To the palestinians she is the epitome of an oppressor!

So now we're getting somewhere. The Palestinians of Gaza THINK that Israel is not democratic--even though Gaza is demonstrably undemocratic itself and Israel has multi-party elections on a regular basis, often resulting in one party being replaced by another one. As a result of this illusion (for that's all it can be) she has a perfect right to fire off thousands of missiles towards Israel's civilians.

THAT's your view of the matter? :o

And you think I'm supposed to find THAT to be a compelling argument?