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Does naturalism imply determinism?

Gracchus

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I assume that "sure and immediate punishment" would therefore change the person's neurochemistry and therefore deprogram them from committing another assault?
I think I put "punishment" in quotes. A beeter way to refer to it might be "negative feedback".
Regardless of the answer to that, my previous question still remains, viz., should the person be punished for committing the assault in the first place if in fact they couldn't help themselves, i.e., if their neurochemistry caused them to do it?
The short answer is no. But they should be prevented from re-offending. We lock up those we judge to be insane if they commit an offense. We also lock up those we judge to be sane. Those who we lock up as insane we let out only when we think they will not re-offend. We let out those who we judge to be sane when they have served a given amount of time, regardless of whether they are likely to re-offend. Now, that's crazy!

:doh:
 
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quatona

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Let me try my question from a different angle. If I were to punch my co-worker in the nose, do you think I should be punished? (Assume they did nothing to "deserve" it.) If so, why? If not, why not?
If we punish him we are determined to punish him, if we don´t punish him we are determined to not punish him.
If we assume that he had no choice we must assume that we don´t have a choice, either.
 
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JonF

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I've been wondering about this idea of naturalism, i.e., that humans are nothing more than physical beings. If our brains are just a bunch of chemicals and electrical impulses, does that mean our behaviors are pre-programmed? How does free will enter the picture (if at all)?

You would first have to pick a definition of free will to discuss this. There are a few. I suggest reading this: Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
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WonderBeat

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I've been wondering about this idea of naturalism, i.e., that humans are nothing more than physical beings. If our brains are just a bunch of chemicals and electrical impulses, does that mean our behaviors are pre-programmed? How does free will enter the picture (if at all)?

Freedom comes from the Beginning, which is oneness, which is Originary.... The life script is already written, but that's because there was no time when it wasn't written.
 
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dysert

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Well what do you consider punishment? Civilized societies don't flog or use the thumbscrew on anyone these days. But being imprisoned is not a day at the beach. Is that not punishment? And the perp can be sued for pain, suffering, and other damages he caused his victim. Wouldn't losing all his assets also be a kind of punishment?
What I would consider punishment is any affliction placed upon the perp beyond incarceration. Keeping him isolated from society so that he won't re-commit the crime may have punishment as a side effect, but if the authorities were to, say, isolate him to solitary confinement or require him to perform hard labor, then that's Punishment beyond what's necessary to protect society.

Is such Punishment morally justified if the perp had no choice but to commit the crime, i.e., his neurochemistry caused him to do it?
 
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dysert

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I assume that "sure and immediate punishment" would therefore change the person's neurochemistry and therefore deprogram them from committing another assault?

I think I put "punishment" in quotes. A beeter way to refer to it might be "negative feedback".

You did. Sorry I missed them. Negative feedback, aka negative reinforcement. But the question remains as to whether negative reinforcement would change the person's neurochemistry and therefore deprogram them from committing another assault? Under "naturalism" it would have to, no?

dysert said:
Regardless of the answer to that, my previous question still remains, viz., should the person be punished for committing the assault in the first place if in fact they couldn't help themselves, i.e., if their neurochemistry caused them to do it?


Gracchus said:
The short answer is no. But they should be prevented from re-offending. We lock up those we judge to be insane if they commit an offense. We also lock up those we judge to be sane. Those who we lock up as insane we let out only when we think they will not re-offend. We let out those who we judge to be sane when they have served a given amount of time, regardless of whether they are likely to re-offend. Now, that's crazy!
What's crazy about it? If negative reinforcement can change someone's neurochemistry to the point where the perp no longer has to commit the crime, then couldn't incarceration have the same effect? And if the person no longer has to commit the crime, and if the crime wasn't the perp's fault initially, then there's no reason to keep him out of society any longer.

Thanks for the short answer! So am I safe in assuming that someone who believes in naturalism should advocate against a perpetrator's being subject to punishment (beyond simple incarceration)?
 
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dysert

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If we punish him we are determined to punish him, if we don´t punish him we are determined to not punish him.
If we assume that he had no choice we must assume that we don´t have a choice, either.
That makes sense, i.e., it's consistent with the doctrine of naturalism. A perp commits a crime because he couldn't help it, and a judge sentences him to death because he couldn't help it. Not the kind of society I'd want to live in, but it follows.
 
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dysert

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Freedom comes from the Beginning, which is oneness, which is Originary.... The life script is already written, but that's because there was no time when it wasn't written.
Sorry. Too deep for me. Even your sig is too deep :-(
 
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quatona

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That makes sense, i.e., it's consistent with the doctrine of naturalism. A perp commits a crime because he couldn't help it, and a judge sentences him to death because he couldn't help it. Not the kind of society I'd want to live in, but it follows.
Not sure how you get to "society". You asked a philosophical question concerning the condition humaine. This is not about the "society you´d want to live in", but the existential conditions you would or would not like to live in. I´m afraid that what we do or don´t desire for has no effect on them. :)

However, the actual challenge is (and maybe this is what you are alluding to):
Under the premise of determinism (of the kind we are discussing here), how do we manage to reconcile this "objective" view with our inner perspective which all the time suggests us the idea that we are considering options with an open end and that we are making decisions?
If - from the objective pov - all this were but an "illusion", do we try to live our lives consistently on basis of this "objective truth", or are we playing the game that our inner perspective suggests us as almost inescapable? (And please note how all these questions themselves are not reconcilable with the first option. ;) ).
 
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Gracchus

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You did. Sorry I missed them. Negative feedback, aka negative reinforcement. But the question remains as to whether negative reinforcement would change the person's neurochemistry and therefore deprogram them from committing another assault? Under "naturalism" it would have to, no?
Have to be? Whether negative reinforcement would or could change behavior and prevent recidivism is a matter for investigation, not some philosophical deduction.
What's crazy about it? If negative reinforcement can change someone's neurochemistry to the point where the perp no longer has to commit the crime, then couldn't incarceration have the same effect? And if the person no longer has to commit the crime, and if the crime wasn't the perp's fault initially, then there's no reason to keep him out of society any longer.
But the point is that unless we can devise other means of insuring that the person does not repeat the anti-social act, then sequestration is the most humane way now available to prevent the repetition. Of course the death penalty also prevents recidivism, but I would resist using that unless the person involved requested it.
Thanks for the short answer! So am I safe in assuming that someone who believes in naturalism should advocate against a perpetrator's being subject to punishment (beyond simple incarceration)?
I don't know. I am not dedicated to a philosophical position. Incarceration isn't really simple. If we could devise other methods of preventing recidivism, they might, for various reasons, be preferable. They might be cheaper or more humane, for instance.

:wave:
 
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KCfromNC

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What I mean by free will is the choice I have as to whether I punch my co-worker in the nose or not. If I have no free will (i.e., no choice) and instead my behavior is totally controlled by "environment, genetics, and upbringing", then I'm not really responsible if I punch my co-worker am I?

Yes, of course you are. You're the one who hit your co-worker, not anyone else.
 
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KCfromNC

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Not quite. I understand why society would isolate from society someone who has committed an assault (e.g., to prevent them from doing it again). But I'm wondering if the person should be *punished* (more so than just being isolated) for the crime. If they couldn't help themselves, i.e., if they had no choice but to commit the assault, then punishment doesn't seem justified to me.

Perhaps the punishment is part of the external factors out of their control that make them unable to choose to punch someone during a future confrontation.
 
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dysert

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Determinism doesn't always exclude free will, it just severly limits it. It really depends on whether you think that everything is caused by nature (including moral choices et cetera) or just most things.
Well, if all there is is the material world, what else could direct the brain in certain ways?
 
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WisdomTree

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Well, if all there is is the material world, what else could direct the brain in certain ways?

To be honest with you, I have no idea. The school of thoughts called "Compatibilism" or "soft determinism" believes that everything is predetermined like what the thesis of Universal Causation says, but everytime there is a point in time where an individual being has to make a choice (with a clear mind), it goes according to what the Freewill Thesis says.

What it is that directs this freewill, I don't think anyone really knows. Even if it's there or not. :confused:
 
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Illuminaughty

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The mainstream understanding of the quantum world isn't strictly deterministic so a naturalist may or may not believe in strict determinism at all levels. I'm not sure if there is much room for the common conceptions of free will even if quantum events are probabilistic rather than deterministic though.
 
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Cerdic

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I tend to look at the matter of determinism like so:

A happens, which causes B to happen, which causes C to happen, and so on. Keep in mind that events and situations don't spontaneously happen; there's always some causation. The simple answer to something happening might be "It was God's will" or somesuch, which might be true as a technicality, but it doesn't take into account the seeming randomness of how the natural world operates at times.
 
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Gracchus

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I tend to look at the matter of determinism like so:

A happens, which causes B to happen, which causes C to happen, and so on. Keep in mind that events and situations don't spontaneously happen; there's always some causation. The simple answer to something happening might be "It was God's will" or somesuch, which might be true as a technicality, but it doesn't take into account the seeming randomness of how the natural world operates at times.
Causation implies that there are separable "events", but a careful study and analysis reveals that the universe is one big event, which we, for purposes of comprehension and communication, artificially divide into parts that are manageable by our somewhat limited minds. Lots of the confusion and argument in this forum arises when we differ over the where divisions, the "definitions" are and should be drawn. Go to a dictionary. Many, if not most words, have more than one meaning, and which is meant depends on context. Of course sometimes these equivocations can be used artfully in humor or poetry, but in many discussions in this forum, it is far more useful to stick to the definition most pertinent to the matter at hand.

"Evolution" in the biological theory thus called is not the same thing as social evolution, or cosmological evolution, or the evolutions of a marching band.

Some people refuse to understand that the biological theory of evolution is not about the big bang, for they perceive that what they call "evolution", but is really science, challenges their primacy in the universe and their over-inflated images of themselves and humanity. They can't come right out and say that they are denying science, because science works. And they can't admit, even to themselves, that humanity has outgrown the simple myths and metaphors of primitive societies, because that would be to confront the terrors lurking in the closet and under the bed.

They have been driven from the center of the universe and now they are being driven from the pinnacle of life. The "Crown of Creation" has been wrested from their grasp and they have to face the fact that they are merely animals, capable of superb reasoning to be sure, but altogether too fond of wishful thinking.

There is nothing to fear: Not death, which is inevitable, not pain, which may or may not be inevitable. (We can certainly avoid some of it if we deal with it rationally.) Even real monsters might be more surely dealt with by confrontation than by flight, if that confrontation is handled in a rational manner. And the unreal monsters, the demons, in our minds, must be dealth with by reason or they will cause us to destroy ourselves.

As a matter of fact, some of the "scientists" are also a little foggy on this point.

The distinctions, the boundaries the definitions we draw are artificial constructs in our minds. We can draw new boundaries, make new distinctions, and manufacture new definitions, as necessary or convenient, to deal with the concepts as our understanding grows and changes. Sociology is psychology writ large, and psychology is biology, and biology is chemistry, and chemistry is physics.

In a single atom there is more than anyone can understand, but that doesn't mean that we cannot understand parts of the whole and in so doing see some faint glimmer of the whole. If a perfect vacuum has mass, and even the most concentrated matter, the protons and neutrons of the atomic nuclei are mostly empty space to the point where the perfect vacuum constitutes by far the greatest part of the mass, then it is ridiculous to cling to the unsubstantial idea.

I define "God" differently than the Christian or the Muslim. Actually, I don't "define" God at all. I don't set boundaries on the real. (Richard Dawkins classified me with the "sexed-up atheists"! Would it were so! ;)) I won't talk about God here. The mods would probably find it an infraction of forum rules. It would make them uncomfortable and they would accuse me of proselytizing.

I do know this: When typhus, or typhoid, or malaria strikes, antibiotics are more useful than prayer.

Think about it.

:wave:
 
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