Does My Avatar Violate the Second Commandment?

[Goatee]

So, all these people who say it's a graven image etc.

What comes to your mind, when, at prayer, you think of Jesus? Is the image in your mind 'graven?'

 

[gordonhooker]

Yes.

In that case why would anyone take any notice of that narrow minded bigotry?

 

[Devin P]

The golden calf was fashioned for the purpose of worship. An avatar isn't considered an object of worship.
It seems natural that art would be influenced by classical art.
If all images of Christ are prohibited, whether He is depicted as white isn't an issue.

I agree. I just was listing some reasons why it doesn't jive with me is all.

 

[Radagast]

Leo III, byname Leo The Isaurian (born c.675, –680, Germanicia, Commagene, Syria—died June 18, 741, Constantinople), Byzantine emperor (717–741), who founded the Isaurian, or Syrian, dynasty, successfully resisted Arab invasions, and engendered a century of conflict within the empire by banning the use of religious images (icons).

Yes. I was just reading about him last week. It was the first big Iconoclastic controversy in the Eastern church.

 

[Tree of Life]

In that case why would anyone take any notice of that narrow minded bigotry?

There's a lot of great stuff in it. Just because there's a little bit that's misguided doesn't mean that the rest of it isn't valuable. It's the foundation of Presbyterianism for a reason. Also, keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church of the seventeenth century is a different animal than the Roman Catholic Church of today.

 

[Blade]

It has been pointed out to me that my avatar is a violation of the second commandment against idolatry and images, based on the Presbyterian Westminster Catechism (Questions 108-110). This seems to be a misapplication of the Westminster standards and a misinterpretation of the second commandment. Am I wrong? If so, how?

Hmm.. some here are .. well pic's I would NEVER use. But.. I am no one God and you are not in this world to please man. The Father knows your heart.. to ask HIM!

 

[DamianWarS]

I can respect their belief as well. It seems misguided to me. I could be wrong.

In terms of overall consistency though, some Presbyterian churches will only sing the Psalms in worship, because that's literally all that's allowed for based on the Presbyterian confessions. The broader questions are how far does one go to maintain consistency with confessional standards and when do these standards become ends in themselves, supplanting the authority Scripture? I may start another thread on those themes.

We all come to Christ from different perspectives and I wouldn’t want to refuse someone perspective because it's different than mine. I don't see significant biblical insight on this to be so dogmatic about the images of Christ both for or against. This means I can both accept those who value and those who do not value the images of Christ as neither should be seen as counter-gospel and can still have a role in building his kingdom.

It makes me wonder where this came from in Presbyterians circles. Perhaps early adoption didn't want to just be "Scottish Anglican" but it's own unique culture taking more simple focuses which has then developed to an allergy toward opposing or toward "English forms".

Perhaps these hardcore Presbyterians would be a good fit to evangelism with Muslims who also reject images like these and actually on a whole don't like any images of people. When a Muslim looks at say the iconography of Orthodox they would look at it as heresy (to be clear I'm not calling it heresy but from a muslim's perspective it would be seen this way) When a Muslim sees Christ at the centre of churches dieing on the cross this is not just heresy but and deeply offensive. They cannot come to a place to accept various forms of the church that embrace and value depictions of saints and Christ. Perhaps if a Muslim walked into a Presbyterian church they would not be offended by its forums they use and be able to move a step closer to Christ rather than a step away with forums that they reject. I know this is not the focus of Presbyterian churches but it's an example of how their values can help spread the gospel even if mainstream Christianity thinks it's odd behaviour or old fashion.

 

[HereIStand]

We all come to Christ from different perspectives and I wouldn’t want to refuse someone perspective because it's different than mine. I don't see significant biblical insight on this to be so dogmatic about the images of Christ both for or against. This means I can both accept those who value and those who do not value the images of Christ as neither should be seen as counter-gospel and can still have a role in building his kingdom.

It makes me wonder where this came from in Presbyterians circles. Perhaps early adoption didn't want to just be "Scottish Anglican" but it's own unique culture taking more simple focuses which has then developed to an allergy toward opposing or toward "English forms".

Perhaps these hardcore Presbyterians would be a good fit to evangelism with Muslims who also reject images like these and actually on a whole don't like any images of people. When a Muslim looks at say the iconography of Orthodox they would look at it as heresy (to be clear I'm not calling it heresy but from a muslim's perspective it would be seen this way) When a Muslim sees Christ at the centre of churches dieing on the cross this is not just heresy but and deeply offensive. They cannot come to a place to accept various forms of the church that embrace and value depictions of saints and Christ. Perhaps if a Muslim walked into a Presbyterian church they would not be offended by its forums they use and be able to move a step closer to Christ rather than a step away with forums that they reject. I know this is not the focus of Presbyterian churches but it's an example of how their values can help spread the gospel even if mainstream Christianity thinks it's odd behaviour or old fashion.

That's a good point. I had not thought of it from a Muslim perspective. It may be that Presbyterians could make inroads into those communities where other Christian traditions could not.
Within Calvinism, there is a real zeal to counter anything in church tradition which is seen to run counter to Scripture. It's a good impulse, but it can pressed too far when a church goes beyond what's warranted in Scripture.

 

[Sistrin]

It has been pointed out to me that my avatar is a violation of the second commandment...

Why even create this thread? I have a hard time believing this is a question you can't answer for yourself.

 

[HereIStand]

Why even create this thread? I have a hard time believing this is a question you can't answer for yourself.

It's a question for discussion. A number of good points have been made so far.

 

[Athanasius377]

I can't speak to the WCF, but as long as you are not worshiping your avatar as God it is fine. The second commandment did not outlaw all images, just those that were representing other gods or God himself. Second, since the incarnation God has human flesh and can be depicted, again as long as the depiction isn't an idol. Also, I haven't seen this in the discussion, but a good point in the Old Testament is the bronze serpent.

Num 21:4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way.
Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.”
Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.”
Num 21:9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
(ESV)

It was only destroyed later on once it became an idol.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's a good point. I had not thought of it from a Muslim perspective. It may be that Presbyterians could make inroads into those communities where other Christian traditions could not.
Within Calvinism, there is a real zeal to counter anything in church tradition which is seen to run counter to Scripture. It's a good impulse, but it can pressed too far when a church goes beyond what's warranted in Scripture.

A great many things are pressed too far within the church (church building, when it comes down to it we need to ask does it give glory to God? does this zeal extend to spreading this glory?

 

[BobRyan]

It has been pointed out to me that my avatar is a violation of the second commandment against idolatry and images, based on the Presbyterian Westminster Catechism (Questions 108-110). This seems to be a misapplication of the Westminster standards and a misinterpretation of the second commandment. Am I wrong? If so, how?

First of all I love the Westminster Confession of Faith and also the Baptist Confession of Faith because section 19 of both perfectly describe how law and grace fit together with the Ten Commandments.

Let's quote the commandment.

Preface included in the first commandment:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

First commandment - forbids worship of other gods regardless of whether you make an image to them
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

second commandment - forbids making an image that you bow down before and promise to serve those that they represent. No mention here of your calling them a "god" or not. The fact that you would make the imagine that represents them and then bow down before it and promise to serve the person being represented - is itself forbidden. It also commands us to "Love God and keep His commandments" as even Christ quoted in John 14:15 "If you Love Me, keep My Commandments"
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[Goatee]

So, all these people who say it's a graven image etc.

What comes to your mind, when, at prayer, you think of Jesus? Is the image in your mind 'graven?'

 

[DamianWarS]

So, all these people who say it's a graven image etc.

What comes to your mind, when, at prayer, you think of Jesus? Is the image in your mind 'graven?'

would not this "image" in your mind be only superficial and only influenced by these popular images of Christ? Close your eyes and picture Satan what do you see? Is it some red guy with a tail and horns? Perhaps images of Christ are more based on mythology than theology. Should we really canonize these images?

 

[BobRyan]

Again such side lines would be avoided by simply reading the text as noted #73

 

[Goatee]

would not this "image" in your mind be only superficial and only influenced by these popular images of Christ? Close your eyes and picture Satan what do you see? Is it some red guy with a tail and horns? Perhaps images of Christ are more based on mythology than theology. Should we really canonize these images?

We know God. God knows us. He knows who we are praying to.

 

[HereIStand]

First of all I love the Westminster Confession of Faith and also the Baptist Confession of Faith because section 19 of both perfectly describe how law and grace fit together with the Ten Commandments.

Let's quote the commandment.

Preface included in the first commandment:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

First commandment - forbids worship of other gods regardless of whether you make an image to them
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

second commandment - forbids making an image that you bow down before and promise to serve those that they represent. No mention here of your calling them a "god" or not. The fact that you would make the imagine that represents them and then bow down before it and promise to serve the person being represented - is itself forbidden. It also commands us to "Love God and keep His commandments" as even Christ quoted in John 14:15 "If you Love Me, keep My Commandments"
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So, since I'm not worshiping another god, and am not bowing down to my avatar it is therefore permitted?

 

[Goatee]

Again such side lines would be avoided by simply reading the text as noted #73

Post 73.....Yea, all that was directed towards the Jews, the people of that age as they would worship ANYTHING!

We know God. We know about His Son. We have the New Testament. They didn't.

There is only one God. God knows our hearts.

 

[HereIStand]

A great many things are pressed too far within the church (church building, when it comes down to it we need to ask does it give glory to God? does this zeal extend to spreading this glory?

Good point. Zeal can be misplaced and end up being counter-productive.