Does morality exist without God?

[TomZzyzx]

That is an internal contradiction in your positions.

You said that moral rules are self-evident, as maths, and that we only "discover" them. You also said that moral rules are not arbitrary.

But any "given" rules are NOT self-evident and are, if that is the sole cause of their existence, arbitrary.

So if morals were indeed self-evident (which I deny, BTW) and non-arbitrary , that would exclude the possibility of a "law-giver".

Explain to me please how it would exclude the possibility of a "moral law giver".

 

[Freodin]

Explain to me please how it would exclude the possibility of a "moral law giver".

Given rules are arbitrary and not self-evident. So if moral rules ARE non-arbitrary and self-evident, they cannot be given.

 

[someguy14]

Life is a gift.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So, as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise, essentially stands firm through every age. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Yeah, that's one of the basic rules by which any society operates.

However, most societies haven't needed the bible to learn that message. The laws of the Roman Republic for example form the basis of every legal system in the western world... They also predate the bible by centuries.

The concepts of don't kill, don't steal, try to live in harmony etc. existed long before Christianity, and will exist long after it's gone. Trying to attribute those concepts to The Bible is simply incorrect.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Ok, where does your morality come from?

My morality comes from the knowledge of how my actions affect others (i.e. Human Empathy). I know if I kill someone, their family and friends will feel great hurt... I can estimate how that hurt would feel as I've lost loved ones before, and knowing I would have caused that hurt makes me feel terrible, and guilty. So I am naturally averse to the idea of killing someone!

It is simply the wrong thing to do.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Ok, where does your morality come from?

And I may point out, you have dodged answering the question by trying to change the topic.

You have yet to show how you can justify your claim that moral laws are universal.

 

[someguy14]

My morality comes from the knowledge of how my actions affect others (i.e. Human Empathy). I know if I kill someone, their family and friends will feel great hurt... I can estimate how that hurt would feel as I've lost loved ones before, and knowing I would have caused that hurt makes me feel terrible, and guilty. So I am naturally averse to the idea of killing someone!

It is simply the wrong thing to do.

How is it wrong for you yet not wrong for animals?
I have seen an animal mourn for it's lost.
What makes you different from an animal?

 

[someguy14]

Yeah, that's one of the basic rules by which any society operates.

However, most societies haven't needed the bible to learn that message. The laws of the Roman Republic for example form the basis of every legal system in the western world... They also predate the bible by centuries.

The concepts of don't kill, don't steal, try to live in harmony etc. existed long before Christianity, and will exist long after it's gone. Trying to attribute those concepts to The Bible is simply incorrect.

So we have a source.
So we agree that don't do wrong against others has always been and is always the case.
How come animals do not follow that principle?
A lion ripping the throat of a hyena. A pack of hyenas ripping to shreds an elephant. If it is natural, how come they disobey that natural sense and choose to kill other animals?

 

[Dave Ellis]

How is it wrong for you yet not wrong for animals?
I have seen an animal mourn for it's lost.
What makes you different from an animal?

Absolutely nothing makes me different in that regard.

However, we're talking apples and oranges here. Most animals that kill others do so in order to eat, or in order to defend themselves.

If I had to kill in order to survive, I would do it. I don't see a moral problem behind that either.


A more accurate comparison would be the behaviour of social animals, like our closest living relatives, Chimpanzees and Bonobos.

Their social structure is not unlike a basic human tribe, and they show much in common with what we would consider ethics. Look it up, it's actually quite fascinating.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So we have a source.
So we agree that don't do wrong against others has always been and is always the case.
How come animals do not follow that principle?
A lion ripping the throat of a hyena. A pack of hyenas ripping to shreds an elephant. If it is natural, how come they disobey that natural sense and choose to kill other animals?

It's no different than us killing cows to make hamburgers.... And burgers are good.

And you're wrong, many animals DO exhibit an understanding of basic morals... especially ones that live in packs or groups.

 

[WilliamB]

Morality is from God, as He wrote His laws on ALL our hearts. The Gentiles in the passage are the atheists. It's important to read both sections to understand this point and to all see why Athiests blaspheme God.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”. Romans 2

 

[Dave Ellis]

So we have a source.
So we agree that don't do wrong against others has always been and is always the case.
How come animals do not follow that principle?
A lion ripping the throat of a hyena. A pack of hyenas ripping to shreds an elephant. If it is natural, how come they disobey that natural sense and choose to kill other animals?

And what do you mean by "we have a source"? I only pointed out that our morals govern what we accept as acceptable behaviour. And since the basis for our legal system pre-dates the bible, that therefore excludes the bible as the source of morality.

Even so, those morals must have been present within us by the time the human race evolved, or we never would have founded our civilizations and never had any basis to write our laws the way we did.

That being said, our idea of morality has shifted in many ways since the dawn of civilization... meaning it is not a static unchanging code.

 

[someguy14]

And what do you mean by "we have a source"?

That's easy, All creation started from somewhere. Your suggesting that humans adapted the ability to decide that going around doing anything they wanted wasn't exactly what they wanted. Such as killing and stealing, because they didn't want it done to themselves. Where did humans come from though? A big bang? Where did a big bang come from? Where did the place where a big bang happened come from?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Morality is from God, as He wrote His laws on ALL our hearts. The Gentiles in the passage are the atheists. It's important to read both sections to understand this point and to all see why Athiests blaspheme God.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”. Romans 2

Please cite evidence that the above is accurate and believable.

Anybody can write whatever they want to. The Muslims will claim morality stems from Allah and can back it up with the Koran. As will any other religion, using their holy book as proof.

Quoting the Bible to an Atheist is wasting your time.... You may as well be quoting Captain Kirk. I don't believe your holy book has any more credibility than anyone elses.

And as we've already established, morality predates the bible, eliminating it as a possible source.

 

[someguy14]

It's no different than us killing cows to make hamburgers.... And burgers are good.

And you're wrong, many animals DO exhibit an understanding of basic morals... especially ones that live in packs or groups.

How come humans decided that animals are ok to kill but not other humans? Both are life. Are animals not as good as us?

How come lions and hyenas don't eat grass and chew on cud as a cow or goat?

You noted that animals do exercise morality. How come so don't? Are you saying that humans are better than animals? Smarter? More evolved? When will an animal be evolved enough to not harm another animal?

 

[Dave Ellis]

That's easy, All creation started from somewhere. Your suggesting that humans adapted the ability to decide that going around doing anything they wanted wasn't exactly what they wanted. Such as killing and stealing, because they didn't want it done to themselves. Where did humans come from though? A big bang? Where did a big bang come from? Where did the place where a big bang happened come from?

Sure, everything came from somewhere.

And Humans did adapt the ability to feel empathy. It is instrumental in building a social culture, which would give us an evolutionary advantage. One may argue it was a necessity for our survival as a race. An individual human is actually quite weak among most predators... a tribe of humans working together formed the blueprint for us eventually dominating the world.

It's not unreasonable to assume the early humans that were predisposed to co-operating with others lived, and ones that decided to go it on their own died off. That behaviour over the course of generations leads us to become a more co-operative and socially cohesive species.

And no, humans did not come from the Big Bang. The Big Bang happened long before the earth even formed. Humans evolved from species that existed prior to us. How life initially formed, we have yet to discover.

Likewise, We don't know what caused the Big Bang. However, we are being intellectually honest by saying we don't know the answer to the problem. Just because there is a gap in our knowledge, gives us absolutely no reason to insert God in the equation, or to even assume God is a remotely credible answer.... After all, where did God come from?

 

[Dave Ellis]

How come humans decided that animals are ok to kill but not other humans? Both are life. Are animals not as good as us?

Yeah, pretty much.

How come lions and hyenas don't eat grass and chew on cud as a cow or goat?

Because that's the way they evolved.

You noted that animals do exercise morality. How come so don't? Are you saying that humans are better than animals? Smarter? More evolved? When will an animal be evolved enough to not harm another animal?

Because some animals evolved differently than we did? And it's likely we'll never be at the point where animals don't want to harm other animals... as that would mean every carnivore on the face of the planet would die of starvation.

 

[WilliamB]

Please cite evidence that the above is accurate and believable.

Anybody can write whatever they want to. The Muslims will claim morality stems from Allah and can back it up with the Koran. As will any other religion, using their holy book as proof.

Quoting the Bible to an Atheist is wasting your time.... You may as well be quoting Captain Kirk. I don't believe your holy book has any more credibility than anyone elses.

And as we've already established, morality predates the bible, eliminating it as a possible source.

I don't quote scripture for atheists, unless they ask. That would be a waste of time. I quoted this scripture to people of faith to see that one, God wrote His laws on all mans hearts, not just Christians and two, that Athiests are blasphemous because of centuries of hypocrisy within the Christian community. But athiests can still operate based on the laws God wrote on their hearts and thus are a law unto themselves.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I don't quote scripture for atheists, unless they ask. That would be a waste of time. I quoted this scripture to people of faith to see that one, God wrote His laws on all mans hearts, not just Christians and two, that Athiests are blasphemous because of centuries of hypocrisy within the Christian community. But athiests can still operate based on the laws God wrote on their hearts and thus are a law unto themselves.

If you want to understand why Atheists believe what they believe, you'd be better off talking to an Atheist about it rather than consulting the Bible.

I really don't care about the centuries of hypocrisy within the Christian community. The only time I'd ever bring it up is when I'm dealing with a "holier than thou" Christian who claims Christianity is perfectly good, and all non-believers are immoral and evil (I understand you are not one of these people, don't worry!). However, that really has no bearing whatsoever on if the base teachings of Christianity are fact or fiction.

What it boils down to is that none of the major theological claims made by Christianity have any evidence whatsoever to back them up as fact. There is no reason to accept them as a result. We even know the Christian concept of God didn't exist in society prior to the early jewish tribes inventing him around 1000BC. All early major civilizations believed in Polytheism, or the worship of multiple gods. The Christian God didn't exist to any of them... So how can you claim that God was there from the beginning, created everything and made a universal law of morals when we know that your idea of God doesn't even predate Ancient Egypt?

 

[WilliamB]

If you want to understand why Atheists believe what they believe, you'd be better off talking to an Atheist about it rather than consulting the Bible.

I really don't care about the centuries of hypocrisy within the Christian community. The only time I'd ever bring it up is when I'm dealing with a "holier than thou" Christian who claims Christianity is perfectly good, and all non-believers are immoral and evil (I understand you are not one of these people, don't worry!). However, that really has no bearing whatsoever on if the base teachings of Christianity are fact or fiction.

What it boils down to is that none of the major theological claims made by Christianity have any evidence whatsoever to back them up as fact. There is no reason to accept them as a result. We even know the Christian concept of God didn't exist in society prior to the early jewish tribes inventing him around 1000BC. All early major civilizations believed in Polytheism, or the worship of multiple gods. The Christian God didn't exist to any of them... So how can you claim that God was there from the beginning, created everything and made a universal law of morals when we know that your idea of God doesn't even predate Ancient Egypt?

I have no interest in understanding atheists. They are a law unto themselves and my love for them is unwavering regardless.