Does morality exist without God?

[allhart]

'meaningless life' aside, it would seem other people's ideas DO have an effect on you. I realize it would take a lot to convince someone else who has a completely different system of morality that they're wrong because they value the wrong things, but you cannot escape the fact that such perspectives exist and have an effect upon the society in which we all live in. Avoiding this problem by trying to 'agree to disagree' is simply trying to ignoring the elephant in the room. Better to sort it out before everyone gets trampled.

I'm wondering if you at least see why many people might have the 'crazy' idea that basing beliefs on the words in a book doesn't make sense. Is it unreasonable that other people believe this, i.e. do you really think people are insane NOT to believe what you think is obviously the truth? The point being that if you can appreciate the rationale or logic that result in those viewpoints, you might be able understand why these opposing views should be worked out.

Though I don't agree with religious conceptions of 'faith', I can appreciate the reasonableness of such beliefs because they stem from the same logical processes. You believe what you do because you measure claims based upon 'whatever' standards. X is true because...., Y is false because..., etc,. In this sense, it seems possible that people could work out differences. But the biggest hurdle is the standard of 'faith'. Valuing this standard too much or too little will result in a standoff. While utter submission to faith requires utter ignorance of all knowledge, the goal is as untenable as requiring omniscient knowledge to vet a particular belief. We exist somewhere in the middle so valuing one extreme or the other is meaningless on the one hand, yet inescapably relevant. Why else do we post our ideas on internet forums....?

Did somebody have to teach you that jumping off a two story building high or higher could in most cases kill you? Most morality inscribed on our conscience/ heart and commonsense plays a major role. Most all people believe in God, but most just hate him. I find most people are just playing a word game with others but the end results on reality are still the same. To have words of justice or reconciliation there needs to be more to life than presently speaking. God validates morality otherwise it is only relative. At one point the world was baring down injustices that if there wasn't for God I could have become a serial killer. Without meaningful purpose in concert with absolute justice. There would have been no reason for me not take whatever I could get away with.

 

[dcyates]

i imagine there was a lot of struggling and circumstance involved

or i could just claim Jesus did it eventually because i want to believe my religion is special and more legitimate then others

Or I could just claim, despite all evidence, that this equality came about via the natural flow of progressive ideology, because I desperately want to believe that my lack of belief is just as special and more legitimate than Christianity.

 

[dcyates]

properly meaning bending it to fit with anything else you consider to be a fact

Well, at least you're providing a perfect example of how certain people (with an obvious agenda) will deliberately twist a perfectly coherent sentence into saying, in this instance, the exact opposite of what is meant.

 

[dcyates]

but if something says all grass is green and you then interpret it to say most grass is green or some grass is green to keep the statement form being false because you depend on it your just fooling yourself

Right. I don't have a problem with what you're saying here. Did you assume I would?

 

[dcyates]

as long as your willing to ignore the question of what the original intended meaning of every word in it actually was for the sake of what you want it to say


then yes it might be possible

Lol. Then that's not properly interpreting it, is it?

 

[dcyates]

Christianity did help to shape the u.s democracy if not for all the in fighting between different Christian sects they problalby would not even of thought freedom of religion would need to be enshrined in the law

You're engaging in pure speculation, blare. If infighting between various sects was all it took to bring about religious freedom, why isn't there also freedom of religion within Islam?

 

[dcyates]

What does "properly" mean here? How do you know when scripture has been interpreted "properly"?


eudaimonia,

Mark

When you've done all you can to take into account the historico-grammatical and socio-rhetorical context of the passage with which you're dealing.

 

[dcyates]

You asked when simply wanting more of something granted it to you. The obvious answer to me is when what you want more of exists in your imagination you can instantly grant it to yourself.

Is this intended as a joke? The issue was equality, specifically between the sexes, and how it's surely not by mere coincidence that, given that the Bible declares males and females equally created in God's image, it's in those areas of the world where the Bible has held its greatest sway that females enjoy the greatest level of equality with males. blarg countered that perhaps it was simply that inequality between genders "bothered people" and that this led to more and more women (including sympathetic men) toward merely "wanting" more equality. On the surface, this is as accurate as it is simplistic. Of course it "bothered" people, particularly women, that they weren't being accorded anywhere near the same status as their male counterparts. And of course they "wanted" equality. My response was that in such situations, merely "wanting" such an elevation in status doesn't often get it for you (at least it hasn't in any other society without it first undergoing a certain degree of Westernization), with the implication being that there has to be some very compelling reason why the more powerful party would be willing to grant it -- such as, recognizing an authority over you that demands it (i.e. God and his revealed word, the Bible).

 

[fenix144]

Is this intended as a joke? The issue was equality, specifically between the sexes, and how it's surely not by mere coincidence that, given that the Bible declares males and females equally created in God's image, it's in those areas of the world where the Bible has held its greatest sway that females enjoy the greatest level of equality with males. blarg countered that perhaps it was simply that inequality between genders "bothered people" and that this led to more and more women (including sympathetic men) toward merely "wanting" more equality. On the surface, this is as accurate as it is simplistic. Of course it "bothered" people, particularly women, that they weren't being accorded anywhere near the same status as their male counterparts. And of course they "wanted" equality. My response was that in such situations, merely "wanting" such an elevation in status doesn't often get it for you (at least it hasn't in any other society without it first undergoing a certain degree of Westernization), with the implication being that there has to be some very compelling reason why the more powerful party would be willing to grant it -- such as, recognizing an authority over you that demands it (i.e. God and his revealed word, the Bible).

You are insanely delusional if you really think the bible brought about equality.

 

[dcyates]

Only if you agree that the Kuran cannot be accurately claimed is factually incorrect or that the Kalevala cannot be accurately claimed is factually incorrect.

So, I agree that ANYTHING on ANY BOOK can be interpreted or explained in such a way that it seems to match reality.

Again, that's not PROPERLY interpreting it. If you write, "I am not a racist," but I want to believe you are, and so I interpret your assertion to say, "I am a racist," then obviously I haven't properly interpreted your statement.

 

[dcyates]

You are insanely delusional if you really think the bible brought about equality.

Oh, brother. One of my old history profs was a card-carrying communist and atheist, and he conceded that it was exclusively the Christian Church -- because of the teachings of the Bible -- that brought about both the Medieval and modern abolitionist movements and the Medieval feminist movement. If, being who he was, could acknowledge that, surely you can, too. (And my other Western history prof that same year -- who was Quebecois, btw -- said the exact same thing.)

 

[allhart]

You are insanely delusional if you really think the bible brought about equality.

What's up with the insults?????

 

[dcyates]

What's up with the insults?????

It's okay. When your worldview comes crashing down about your head, people can get understandably upset.

 

[allhart]

It's okay. When your worldview comes crashing down about your head, people can get understandably upset.

Broadmindedness is a blessing for some and is a curse to others.

 

[Belk]

Is this intended as a joke? The issue was equality, specifically between the sexes, and how it's surely not by mere coincidence that, given that the Bible declares males and females equally created in God's image, it's in those areas of the world where the Bible has held its greatest sway that females enjoy the greatest level of equality with males. blarg countered that perhaps it was simply that inequality between genders "bothered people" and that this led to more and more women (including sympathetic men) toward merely "wanting" more equality. On the surface, this is as accurate as it is simplistic. Of course it "bothered" people, particularly women, that they weren't being accorded anywhere near the same status as their male counterparts. And of course they "wanted" equality. My response was that in such situations, merely "wanting" such an elevation in status doesn't often get it for you (at least it hasn't in any other society without it first undergoing a certain degree of Westernization), with the implication being that there has to be some very compelling reason why the more powerful party would be willing to grant it -- such as, recognizing an authority over you that demands it (i.e. God and his revealed word, the Bible).

And I was supporting your statement by noting that the only place wanting something is the same as getting it without effort is when it is in your head.

However I will divorce myself from your claims regarding Christianity and woman's suffrage. The hard part about religion is that both sides believe themselves in the right and invoke God's blessings upon themselves and his wrath upon those perfidious others.

 

[fenix144]

Oh, brother. One of my old history profs was a card-carrying communist and atheist, and he conceded that it was exclusively the Christian Church -- because of the teachings of the Bible -- that brought about both the Medieval and modern abolitionist movements and the Medieval feminist movement. If, being who he was, could acknowledge that, surely you can, too. (And my other Western history prof that same year -- who was Quebecois, btw -- said the exact same thing.)

Him being quebecois having what to do with anything?

 

[fenix144]

It's okay. When your worldview comes crashing down about your head, people can get understandably upset.

Cool story bro.

Christianity and Women
Christianity Versus Women Julia Hernandez and Al Seckel - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy
The Dark Bible: Women's Inferior Status
GERMAN LEAGUE FOR THE PREVENTION OF ... - Diane J. Guido - Google Livres

 

[allhart]

Cool story bro.

Christianity and Women
Christianity Versus Women Julia Hernandez and Al Seckel - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy
The Dark Bible: Women's Inferior Status
GERMAN LEAGUE FOR THE PREVENTION OF ... - Diane J. Guido - Google Livres

U can have all the worlds Knowledge at ur fingertips but it take wisdom to put it all together..... Godly wisdom at best!

God's wisdom revealed by the spirit.
1 Cor. 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived"--
the things God has prepared for those who love him--

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

"Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?"[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[fenix144]

U can have all the worlds Knowledge at ur fingertips but it take wisdom to put it all together..... Godly wisdom at best!

God's wisdom revealed by the spirit.
1 Cor. 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived"--
the things God has prepared for those who love him--

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

"Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?"[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.

Cool story bro.
Where are your non-mysoginistic passages?

 

[allhart]

Cool story bro.
Where are your non-mysoginistic passages?

Word games.....