Does morality exist without God?

[homeofmew]

Like i said before, if every one differs as to what is right and wrong then someone can think murder is right. And the bad thing about that is if people are allowed to make up their own morality then no one can tell them that murder is wrong. This is why we need God's morality. We need an absolute right and wrong so everyone knows it is wrong to murder. God has given us this absolute morality. That's what the 10 commandments are, God's morality.

Do not get me wrong - there is an ultimate line of good and evil,
however people will disagree on "right and wrong".

Morality is a different word than good and evil - it's more of a "right and wrong".

For example Murdering someone is wrong because the God that I choose to follow says not to murder people.
But look at the ambition, was it greed, hate or an "evil"/"malicious" intent. God understands there will be wars and such
and even in the bibles defeats Israels enemies for them.

We gave our lives to Christ and committed to him and it is not in our integrity to break any commitments we gave to him.
Yes Murdering is defiantly one of them. When you become a christian you live under Gods/Yaweh's law.

My example of nakedness example is more of a morality stance of "right and wrong" other than "good and evil". It is not in the standards of society to be naked. However before the fall it was not "wrong". The entire murder thing didn't show up until cain and abel.

Does/Can Morality Exist without God?
It can - but given God the authority of right and wrong give it it's authority.

Watch Time Changer

 

[quatona]

The argument is pretty simple:

(1) Many people believe in many different things on the topic of morality.
(2) There is no agree'd upon set of morality.
(3) There is no way to prove that something is moral or not.
(4) Thus, there is no real, true, absolute morality or sense thereof.

Unless, of course: there is God, and He has determined what is right and proper, or there is some sort of objective, intellectual thing that we can point to.

What renders God´s opinion objective?

 

[TomZzyzx]

I used to take that stance, too. But come to think of it, if God exists and gave humans free will (which I assume means we are not somehow subconsciously led by God), then morality (other than that of the 10 commandments and Jesus of Nazaret at least) can not be made by God.
Morality is arguable part of human behaviour, or human nature even. Even people who have never heard of the Bible have some kind of morality, and one that is at its core similar to ours. Commands to not steal and not kill (outsire the law) are pretty much universal, and something humans pick up already in early childhood; maybe there is even a genetic basis for them.
So if morality is part of human nature, and humans have free will, then I would say morality as such is definitely not God-made.

Of course one can still argue that the morality of the bible is God-made. But noone can deny that moralty exists outside of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish community.

@Tom: Maybe I can not prove that something is moral or not, but that lies in the nature of morality. How would one even go about proving something concerning morality. You certainly can't prove that "God's" morality is the true morality for humans. As Isaiah said: "[God's] ways are not your ways."

However, I think that when we discover universal moral traits present in all cultures, then we do get closer to a universal, objective morality.

God's absolute morality has nothing to do with our free will. The only morality you get from human behavior is moral relativism, which is dangerous to the human race. People that have never heard the bible have some king of morality because moral rules are self-evident. We don't invent morality, we discover it like we discover math and logic.

 

[blarg the 2nd]

Again, I have no idea what your talking about. What doesn't exist? What scares me? God doing what with commands?

subjective relative morality

 

[blarg the 2nd]

The argument is pretty simple:

(1) Many people believe in many different things on the topic of morality.
(2) There is no agree'd upon set of morality.
(3) There is no way to prove that something is moral or not.
(4) Thus, there is no real, true, absolute morality or sense thereof.

Unless, of course: there is God, and He has determined what is right and proper, or there is some sort of objective, intellectual thing that we can point to.

This is one of the oldest and most basic debates.

a god may be subjective to it jsut has power to hurt you or destory you

 

[blarg the 2nd]

I used to take that stance, too. But come to think of it, if God exists and gave humans free will (which I assume means we are not somehow subconsciously led by God), then morality (other than that of the 10 commandments and Jesus of Nazaret at least) can not be made by God.
Morality is arguable part of human behaviour, or human nature even. Even people who have never heard of the Bible have some kind of morality, and one that is at its core similar to ours. Commands to not steal and not kill (outsire the law) are pretty much universal, and something humans pick up already in early childhood; maybe there is even a genetic basis for them.
So if morality is part of human nature, and humans have free will, then I would say morality as such is definitely not God-made.

Of course one can still argue that the morality of the bible is God-made. But noone can deny that moralty exists outside of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish community.

@Tom: Maybe I can not prove that something is moral or not, but that lies in the nature of morality. How would one even go about proving something concerning morality. You certainly can't prove that "God's" morality is the true morality for humans. As Isaiah said: "[God's] ways are not your ways."

However, I think that when we discover universal moral traits present in all cultures, then we do get closer to a universal, objective morality.

comon opinyon is not the smae as universel though any one being able to feel difrently would show it is not unversel

 

[blarg the 2nd]

Do not get me wrong - there is an ultimate line of good and evil,
however people will disagree on "right and wrong".

Morality is a different word than good and evil - it's more of a "right and wrong".

For example Murdering someone is wrong because the God that I choose to follow says not to murder people.
But look at the ambition, was it greed, hate or an "evil"/"malicious" intent. God understands there will be wars and such
and even in the bibles defeats Israels enemies for them.

We gave our lives to Christ and committed to him and it is not in our integrity to break any commitments we gave to him.
Yes Murdering is defiantly one of them. When you become a christian you live under Gods/Yaweh's law.

My example of nakedness example is more of a morality stance of "right and wrong" other than "good and evil". It is not in the standards of society to be naked. However before the fall it was not "wrong". The entire murder thing didn't show up until cain and abel.

Does/Can Morality Exist without God?
It can - but given God the authority of right and wrong give it it's authority.

Watch Time Changer

that ultimit line is still jsut for you and the like minded

to me murder is rihgt or worng base don how i fell baout it your god is irelavint to me

and whring clothing or not is a human made taboo well when its not a wheter based nesescity i thinck gnesiesi was jsut wirten by epole that didi niot like you to be outside nekid

 

[blarg the 2nd]

God's absolute morality has nothing to do with our free will. The only morality you get from human behavior is moral relativism, which is dangerous to the human race. People that have never heard the bible have some king of morality because moral rules are self-evident. We don't invent morality, we discover it like we discover math and logic.

yes we discover it based on what we liek and dont like if we all likd the same things it would be universel its not

morality is as relative as peole are difrent htouhg its simaler between peole as much as pepole are alike

 

[JustMeSee]

Obviously all of this is wholly dependent on how you define God.

I call God the cause of our universe.

Yes, I agree. There are perspectives that range between the extremes of all or nothing. Something for me to remember.

 

[Verv]

If there was indeed a real, true, absolute morality, then the very existence of different moralities would mean that the cause of morality cannot be the cause of everything else.

No - it would mean only that humans, like in so many of the things that they do, are frequently prone to error.

What renders God´s opinion objective?

a god may be subjective to it jsut has power to hurt you or destory you

Theoretically there could be a God of any opinion as is stated, but it seems to be most logical to people that:

(1) A God who creates a world would probably be inclined in some way to desire to be a nurturer of some sort, implying that he would be inclined to love their creation.

(2) If humans are often morally superior to animals, and we are a higher form of existence than them, it might make sense that God would have the higher form of morality than humans.

We often even envision any advanced alien race as also likely having some sort of advanced moral compass.

It is also safe to say that we believe the morality of present day folks is more advanced than many of those in the past, that we've somehow 'learned.'

But, this always will come down to Faith -- God cannot be proven, and the Bible teaches us that it comes down to Faith; if God were proven, it would be the greatest blow against the Bible ever and I'd be looking for a different religion immediately.

 

[Freodin]

No - it would mean only that humans, like in so many of the things that they do, are frequently prone to error.

And why would we be prone to error?

If morality is about "right and wrong" - about what one is supposed to do and supposed to not do - then doing something that doesn't do what it is supposed to do is "wrong".

 

[quatona]

Theoretically there could be a God of any opinion as is stated, but it seems to be most logical to people that:

(1) A God who creates a world would probably be inclined in some way to desire to be a nurturer of some sort, implying that he would be inclined to love their creation.

(2) If humans are often morally superior to animals, and we are a higher form of existence than them, it might make sense that God would have the higher form of morality than humans.

We often even envision any advanced alien race as also likely having some sort of advanced moral compass.

It is also safe to say that we believe the morality of present day folks is more advanced than many of those in the past, that we've somehow 'learned.'

But, this always will come down to Faith -- God cannot be proven, and the Bible teaches us that it comes down to Faith; if God were proven, it would be the greatest blow against the Bible ever and I'd be looking for a different religion immediately.

Was that an attempt to answer my question that you quoted?

 

[Redac]

Morality does not exist outside of the minds of human beings.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Morality does not exist outside of the minds of human beings.

Which is a very disturbing thought.

 

[blarg the 2nd]

No - it would mean only that humans, like in so many of the things that they do, are frequently prone to error.





Theoretically there could be a God of any opinion as is stated, but it seems to be most logical to people that:

(1) A God who creates a world would probably be inclined in some way to desire to be a nurturer of some sort, implying that he would be inclined to love their creation.

(2) If humans are often morally superior to animals, and we are a higher form of existence than them, it might make sense that God would have the higher form of morality than humans.

We often even envision any advanced alien race as also likely having some sort of advanced moral compass.

It is also safe to say that we believe the morality of present day folks is more advanced than many of those in the past, that we've somehow 'learned.'

But, this always will come down to Faith -- God cannot be proven, and the Bible teaches us that it comes down to Faith; if God were proven, it would be the greatest blow against the Bible ever and I'd be looking for a different religion immediately.

those are some big asumptions

 

[blarg the 2nd]

Morality does not exist outside of the minds of human beings.

well it might if ther are suficitnly advanecd minds elswher in existince

 

[blarg the 2nd]

Which is a very disturbing thought.

it can be to bad that dosent make it any less true or false

 

[Redac]

well it might if ther are suficitnly advanecd minds elswher in existince

True enough, but my statement stands until we encounter such beings.

 

[blarg the 2nd]

what scares me more then people deciding for themselves whats good and bad knowing that there version of good and bad is not universal moral law

is fanatics who regardless of whether universal morality exists or not believe in it and will never be persuaded by arguments to change there minds

because they know ( there certain ) they absolutely know ( they don't but they believe they do ) that what they believe is right and wrong must be true and only there view rely matter in the end.

and that's scary and bad for me because i dont like it

 

[Redac]

Which is a very disturbing thought.

Why's that?