Does morality exist without God?

[sandwiches]

We should all be able to gain insight from appreciating other's POV, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to do everything you can do, nor vice-versa. You'll also need to accept the limitations of human language when dealing w/ Spiritual matters.

Well, I am assuming that it possible to use a human language when speaking of the spiritual as millions of people assume so when reading the Bible or interpreting it.

 

[david_x]

So now you claim you never said anything about hearing “the supernatural”. Here is what you said:

A conversation is an oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions or ideas. To exchange is to give and receive reciprocally. So when you said you were in “daily conversation with the supernatural”, that means that you and “the supernatural” are both giving and receiving sentiments, observations, opinions or ideas orally. In other words, you speak and “the supernatural” hears you then “the supernatural” speaks and you hear it.

Numerous people here have now asked you to explain the mechanism of this conversation. For example, people have asked you what “the supernatural” says, what does its voice sound like, how do you conduct your daily conversations and are you only talking or can you see “the supernatural” as well. I asked you whether it is actually true that you have daily conversations with the supernatural or do you just imagine it. You evaded every one of those questions.

If your statement that you have daily conversations with the supernatural were actually true then it means you would have to hear “the supernatural” yet, in your latest post, you deny that. So what are we to make of this? Were you lying when you said you have daily conversations with the supernatural or are you lying now? Are you, in fact, equivocating when you call them “conversations”? Is it that you don’t have an actual conversation with the supernatural, but simply imagine it instead? Claiming now that it is “visions” or “knowledge” that, presumably, just appear inside your mind certainly suggests you are simply imagining it. If you disagree then please explain how you distinguish your “conversations” from imagination.

If only you would have read one more definition from your link...

3. an exchange similar to conversation.

Seriously, you wanted to know and I told you. If it is not what you wanted it is your problem. lul

 

[david_x]

All that rigmarole and you could've just said that in the first place! Though, I have to admit, there's a certain satisfaction I just got that you had to kinda backstep on what you originally said. You don't any more "converse" with the supernatural than a monkey's behind. If you had just said that from the start, you'dve saved a lot of trouble. Sheesh.

It would have been improper to indulge a red herring, which i thought it was.

I'm not back stepping at all. And I really don't think anyone is fool enough to believe that I am.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, I am assuming that it possible to use a human language when speaking of the spiritual as millions of people assume so when reading the Bible or interpreting it.

Yes, possible. Strained, inadequate, incomplete:

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Understanding it requires the development of something the Bible labels "a spiritual mind." This how "the conversation" my Brother is being grilled about takes place. As an unbeliever, you are not so equipped.

 

[sandwiches]

Yes, possible. Strained, inadequate, incomplete:

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Understanding it requires the development of something the Bible labels "a spiritual mind." This how "the conversation" my Brother is being grilled about takes place. As an unbeliever, you are not so equipped.

Could I be equipped?

 

[david_x]

Could I be equipped?

Indeed.

 

[selfinflikted]

It'll never happen. (Not completely anyway, and probably not to an extent you will find satisfactory) You have your own life to live, and answer for.

Yes I realize that it'll prbably never happen. But when someone makes an outlandish claim, I question it. Questions can often lead to answers, and answers ultimately satisfy my curiosity. See how that works?

 

[selfinflikted]

It would have been improper to indulge a red herring, which i thought it was.

No, it's more improper to refuse to answer a simple question repeatedly and feign off-topic rule violations.

I'm not back stepping at all. And I really don't think anyone is fool enough to believe that I am.

To paraphrase:

You: I converse with the supernatural daily.
Us: What does the voice sound like? What does it say? How do you do it?
You: Well, I don't really "converse", it's just thoughts in my head.

If that ain't a backpedal, I dunno what is. But, that is completely beside the point. I'm glad you finally answered truthfully about your supernatural conversations.

 

[selfinflikted]

Understanding it requires the development of something the Bible labels "a spiritual mind." This how "the conversation" my Brother is being grilled about takes place. As an unbeliever, you are not so equipped.

With all due respect, this is such a copout! I am not suprised that when all the fluff was cut away that it came to that. I don't know why I let myself be continuously disappointed by these conversations.

 

[chris4243]

Well, the truth about that is out already. Now, we just have to figure out how he distinguishes between "conversing" with god, and his imagination. This should be very interesting. /popcorn

And the dreams might also be related to the supernatural but not from God.

Deuteronomy 13

1 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Jeremiah 23

11 “Both prophet and priest are godless;
even in my temple I find their wickedness,”
declares the LORD.
16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.
25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?

33 “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the LORD?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the LORD.’ 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the LORD,’ I will punish them and their household. 35 This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelites: ‘What is the LORD’s answer?’ or ‘What has the LORD spoken?’ 36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the LORD’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the LORD’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the LORD spoken?’ 38 Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the LORD,’ this is what the LORD says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the LORD,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the LORD.’ 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

Jeremiah 29

8 Yes, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the LORD.

Zechariah 10

2 diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain.

Isaiah 28


7 And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.

9 “Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there.”
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
15 You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood[b] our hiding place.”

Ezekiel 13

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: ‘Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish[a] prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, Israel, are like jackals among ruins. 5 You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD. 6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. Even though the LORD has not sent them, they say, “The LORD declares,” and expect him to fulfill their words. 7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The LORD declares,” though I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 22

26 [Jerusalem's] priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 28 Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says’—when the LORD has not spoken.


According to the Bible, even fulfilled prophecy is not proof that the person in question has a message from God.

 

[selfinflikted]

According to the Bible, even fulfilled prophecy is not proof that the person in question has a message from God.

I have no problem admitting that "visions" (or whatever you want to call it) could be from god, the devil, or some other supernatural entity. I just have never seen any evidence that would make me lean in that direction.

 

[sandwiches]

Indeed.

How?

 

[david_x]

No, it's more improper to refuse to answer a simple question repeatedly and feign off-topic rule violations.

This is libelous, to accuse me of lying! I would think we are mature enough have a good will discussion.

To paraphrase:

You: I converse with the supernatural daily.
Us: What does the voice sound like? What does it say? How do you do it?
You: Well, I don't really "converse", it's just thoughts in my head.

If that ain't a backpedal, I dunno what is. But, that is completely beside the point. I'm glad you finally answered truthfully about your supernatural conversations.

You misunderstood, I did not back step at all.

 

[david_x]

How?

I'm not quite sure, but I know it is part of the process. Eventually along the way to heaven you learn the language. But don't misunderstand me, it is not something you can do, you must be equipped you can not equip yourself.

 

[selfinflikted]

You misunderstood, I did not back step at all.

Ok, then my mistake. I must have a gross misunderstanding of the word "converse."

 

[sandwiches]

I'm not quite sure, but I know it is part of the process. Eventually along the way to heaven you learn the language. But don't misunderstand me, it is not something you can do, you must be equipped you can not equip yourself.

So, there's nothing I can do to become equipped so I can see all this supernatural stuff or truly understand the Bible?

 

[selfinflikted]

I think he means god has to do the "equipping."

 

[sandwiches]

I think he means god has to do the "equipping."

So, it is God's choice that I am an unbeliever.

 

[selfinflikted]

So, it is God's choice that I am an unbeliever.

Exaclty my point!

 

[benglobal]

I think it is worth interjecting at this point with regards talking to God to give a non religious believer in God perspective. I have attached a link to a free podcast that gives a detailed view of what I am trying to convey. I cannot speak for the Christian perspective only mine. Meditation which I do, creates inner dialogue not in a conversation sense but an inner awareness where there is subtle interaction that is hard to define. I would not suggest this is dialogue with god but this is my take on what it is to be spiritual or allowing the spirit to enter the body or open a communication. I’m not sure if prayer is similar as I don’t pray, as prayer is a specific of religion where the intent is to connect with God. It’s worth a listen. I believe this is where the really interesting research is going on at present in the field of Neuro science and how the mind (what is it) affects the body and its relationship with what we call the self.


Meditation and the Brain with Daniel Siegel (BSP 44) - Home - Brain Science Podcast