Does morality exist without God?

[Belk]

No, because you are missing something huge. Omnipotence doesn't mean God WILL do anything and everything, only that He CAN. The future can be unchanging without affecting God's ability to do things because while God CAN act to bring about a change, it is obvious that He is not bound to do so by any force greater than Himself or anything He created.

So is God, in your view, static?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

No, because you are missing something huge. Omnipotence doesn't mean God WILL do anything and everything, only that He CAN. The future can be unchanging without affecting God's ability to do things because while God CAN act to bring about a change, it is obvious that He is not bound to do so by any force greater than Himself or anything He created.

Omniscience negates any capacity for personal spontaneity thus negating omnipotence.

 

[Zebra1552]

So is God, in your view, static?

No. Having all knowledge means you know what the end result- and the various consequences- of each individual decision and know that decision interacts with other decisions. I don't think the future is set in stone just because God has foreknowledge.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

No. Having all knowledge means you know what the end result- and the various consequences- of each individual decision and know that decision interacts with other decisions. I don't think the future is set in stone just because God has foreknowledge.

Said foreknowledge also means that any "change of mind" is foreknowledge . Making the concept of changing one's mind meaningless. The lack of the capacity to do so means no omnipotence.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

So is God, in your view, static?

More than once have I heard from a fellow Christian that God does not change.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Said foreknowledge also means that any "change of mind" is foreknowledge . Making the concept of changing one's mind meaningless.

But nonetheless possible. We still make our choices, we're the ones who end up deciding what we decide. God knows in advance, but that doesn't make the decision any less ours.

The lack of the capacity to do so means no omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability, not the will, to do something. Even if God had no free will, he could still very well be omnipotent.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

But nonetheless possible. We still make our choices, we're the ones who end up deciding what we decide. God knows in advance, but that doesn't make the decision any less ours.


Omnipotence is the ability, not the will, to do something. Even if God had no free will, he could still very well be omnipotent.

Actually no. It literally means that omniscience utterly negates any and all possibility to do such a thing. As it relates to an omniscient being, the concept of changing it's mind does not exist. It lacks the capacity to do so utterly. Negating omnipotence.

There's no way around it. You either have to drop omnipotence or omniscience.

 

[Zebra1552]

Said foreknowledge also means that any "change of mind" is foreknowledge .

Incorrect, it means that a 'change of mind' or alternative decisions are, in fact, variances in the future and it means that the future is not set in stone. Just because God knows these options and their effects does not mean He chooses to take them.

Making the concept of changing one's mind meaningless. The lack of the capacity to do so means no omnipotence.

Incorrect again. The capacity is still there. Whether you find it meaningless doesn't affect the ability's existence.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Actually no. It literally means that omniscience utterly negates any and all possibility to do such a thing.

No, it literally means 'all-knowing', that is, having the capacity to know or to be . It's a matter of contention, and by no means settled, as to whether omniscience is mutually exclusive to free will and omnipotence.

As it relates to an omniscient being, the concept of changing it's mind does not exist. It lacks the capacity to do so utterly. Negating omnipotence.

How does that negate omnipotence?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Incorrect, it means that a 'change of mind' or alternative decisions are, in fact, variances in the future and it means that the future is not set in stone. Just because God knows these options and their effects does not mean He chooses to take them.


Incorrect again. The capacity is still there. Whether you find it meaningless doesn't affect the ability's existence.

Incorrect. Omniscience negates any concept of "does not mean He chooses to take them." Omniscience means any change of mine is already known, and the claim is not built on some bizarre premise of only sometimes being omniscient. Which wouldn't apply anyway given the given characteristic of being outside of time and omnipresent.

At that point any talk of "changing His mind." and choice at all becomes gibberish. Your lack of capacity to understand the concepts notwithstanding.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

No, it literally means 'all-knowing', that is, having the capacity to know or to be . It's a matter of contention, and by no means settled, as to whether omniscience is mutually exclusive to free will and omnipotence.


How does that negate omnipotence?

Omniscience and Omnipotence are mutually exclusive. One negates the other.

 

[rjc34]

Incorrect, it means that a 'change of mind' or alternative decisions are, in fact, variances in the future and it means that the future is not set in stone. Just because God knows these options and their effects does not mean He chooses to take them.

Bingo. A future not set it stone means god cannot logically know the future. Thanks for playing!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Omniscience and Omnipotence are mutually exclusive. One negates the other.

Yes, so you keep asserting. Can you prove it?

 

[Belk]

More than once have I heard from a fellow Christian that God does not change.

This has been my experience as well. One wonders if they have pondered the logical consequences of this.

 

[Belk]

No. Having all knowledge means you know what the end result- and the various consequences- of each individual decision and know that decision interacts with other decisions. I don't think the future is set in stone just because God has foreknowledge.

Then do you think God simply knows all possibilities and is not certain which path we will take? Because God knowing exactly what will happen would seem to indicate a future set in stone while giving us the appearance of free will.

 

[Belk]

Omniscience and Omnipotence are mutually exclusive. One negates the other.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Zebra1552]

Bingo. A future not set it stone means god cannot logically know the future. Thanks for playing!

Wrong. A future not set in stone merely means that the future is flexible and that God, then, is able to change the outcome if and when He so desires. You're making leaps in logic here to try to show me up.

 

[Zebra1552]

Incorrect. Omniscience negates any concept of "does not mean He chooses to take them." Omniscience means any change of mine is already known, and the claim is not built on some bizarre premise of only sometimes being omniscient. Which wouldn't apply anyway given the given characteristic of being outside of time and omnipresent.

I never said sometimes omniscient. I said the future is in motion and that God can direct its path based on His knowledge of each decision and its consequences. You are making a straw man argument.

At that point any talk of "changing His mind." and choice at all becomes gibberish. Your lack of capacity to understand the concepts notwithstanding.

Cut the personal attacks or I will not be discussing this with you.

 

[Zebra1552]

Then do you think God simply knows all possibilities and is not certain which path we will take?

No, God knows which path we will take. We, regardless of whether God knows it, are making such decisions, not God. That's self evident. What isn't self evident, apparently, is that God is able to intervene in events at His disclosure and this affects the future to make it fluid, not static.

Because God knowing exactly what will happen would seem to indicate a future set in stone while giving us the appearance of free will.

God knowing what could happen doesn't mean He lets it happen all the time.

 

[Zebra1552]

More than once have I heard from a fellow Christian that God does not change.

Never once have I ever seen this in Scripture.