Does morality exist without God?

[Zebra1552]

Yeah, cuz I've spent several pages of posts just letting my fingers run on the keyboard.

 

[belarm]

Context, my friend. I've already demonstrated the principles that come from the Bible- C to B- and I've demonstrated the morality comes from the principles- D to C. I'm not about to say all morality and all principles come from the Bible, and I haven't. What I am saying is that some morality cannot exist without God, and I have given ample evidence to provide for this statement. That many principles used today came from the Bible- regardless of if they came from other sources in addition to the Bible- shows this.

That may have been what you meant, but it is not what you said:

Actually, it's quite relevant. Without God (A), no Bible (B). Without Bible, no principles (C). Without principles, no morality (D). You wanted my argument? You just accepted C and D, thereby accepting A and B.

If D requires C, and D is present, then C must be present. Ergo, D implies C. You made the same statement for all of the relationships, and then said 'since D, A'. If you're recanting that, fine. But if you assert that the existence of principles requires the Bible, I'm going to continue to ask for supporting evidence. As to the Bible => God argument, what about the bibles which were supposedly written by or under the influence of other gods (e.g., the Bhagavad Gita), or even your god (the Koran)?

If your original statement was mis-typed, or you believe I misinterpreted it, you still need to justify this statement:

What I am saying is that some morality cannot exist without God

Which morality cannot? Where is the proof that it requires God? Does it require your god?

 

[Zebra1552]

That may have been what you meant, but it is not what you said:

Hardly. That is what my statement means in context.

If D requires C, and D is present, then C must be present. Ergo, D implies C. You made the same statement for all of the relationships, and then said 'since D, A'. If you're recanting that, fine. But if you assert that the existence of principles requires the Bible, I'm going to continue to ask for supporting evidence.

I asserted that the existence of various principles found in the Bible cannot exist without the Bible. I fail to see why that needs evidence. Obviously if something comes from a specific source it needs that source to exist.

As to the Bible => God argument, what about the bibles which were supposedly written by or under the influence of other gods (e.g., the Bhagavad Gita), or even your god (the Koran)?

Lack of evidence supporting reliability.

If your original statement was mis-typed, or you believe I misinterpreted it, you still need to justify this statement:

Which morality cannot? Where is the proof that it requires God? Does it require your god?

Christian morality, in its name, and yes.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Christian morality, in its name, and yes.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is 'Christian morality', such that non-Christians can't have it? Is it the moral code a Christian extracts from the Bible?

 

[belarm]

I asserted that the existence of various principles found in the Bible cannot exist without the Bible. I fail to see why that needs evidence. Obviously if something comes from a specific source it needs that source to exist.

The fact that said principles are in the bible does not mean they are found exclusively in the Bible. To establish that, you would need to demonstrate that such principles have never manifested without influence by the OT or NT.

Lack of evidence supporting reliability.

I am in no way convinced that the Bible is reliable. As far as I know, it's equally likely that there are nine worlds hanging from Yggdrasil and that by living an honorable life and dying in battle I can fight, drink, and party in Asgard until Ragnarok.

Christian morality, in its name, and yes.

Fair enough, that only implies it requires Christianity (and still doesn't eliminate other sources), and why? Additionally, is that the same god of the Jews, the Muslims, the Calvinists, the Catholics, the Protestants, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or Zoroastrianism?

 

[quatona]

Yeah, cuz I've spent several pages of posts just letting my fingers run on the keyboard.

Ok, that explains it.

 

[rjc34]

It's about love and respect, not 'subservience'. An all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God sort of deserves love and respect, being our creator and all.

Reading through this thread and came across this gem. You realize you've just defined your god out of existence? One cannot be a 'married bachelor', just as one cannot be all-knowing and all-powerful. If he knows everything then all is predestined and our fates are sealed from the time we are born. If he is all knowing then he cannot change anything, because changing something immediately means he did not know of that change.

And even if such a creator existed, he has no right to my love and respect. I didn't ask to be made, and certainly an all powerful, all loving god would solve evil, or else he is neither.

 

[Zebra1552]

Reading through this thread and came across this gem. You realize you've just defined your god out of existence? One cannot be a 'married bachelor', just as one cannot be all-knowing and all-powerful. If he knows everything then all is predestined and our fates are sealed from the time we are born. If he is all knowing then he cannot change anything, because changing something immediately means he did not know of that change.

Knowledge is not predestination. I've been over this.

And even if such a creator existed, he has no right to my love and respect. I didn't ask to be made, and certainly an all powerful, all loving god would solve evil, or else he is neither.

Why should an all knowing, all powerful God interfere with your life if you don't want Him to just to 'solve evil'?

 

[Zebra1552]

The fact that said principles are in the bible does not mean they are found exclusively in the Bible.

I'm sorry, but do you know of any other religions where a guy named Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God and God in the flesh, came down and died for the sins of all mankind? Didn't think so.

To establish that, you would need to demonstrate that such principles have never manifested without influence by the OT or NT.

Depends on what principles we're talking about.

I am in no way convinced that the Bible is reliable. As far as I know, it's equally likely that there are nine worlds hanging from Yggdrasil and that by living an honorable life and dying in battle I can fight, drink, and party in Asgard until Ragnarok.

I really don't care. It's not my job in this thread to show you the reliability of the Bible. You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. It is not on me to convince you of anything.

Fair enough, that only implies it requires Christianity (and still doesn't eliminate other sources), and why? Additionally, is that the same god of the Jews, the Muslims, the Calvinists, the Catholics, the Protestants, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or Zoroastrianism?

Because my argument is that some morality cannot exist without God, and no, it isn't the same God as the JW's, Mormons, Muslims, or Zoroastrians. The rest aren't religions so they require no answer.

 

[Zebra1552]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is 'Christian morality', such that non-Christians can't have it?

Christian morality cannot be had by an atheist because it recognizes God where an atheist believes there is none.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Christian morality cannot be had by an atheist because it recognizes God where an atheist believes there is none.

Perhaps not all of Christian morality, if you are including rules such as "Love God". But some rules may be practiced.

If an example is: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", this can certainly be practiced by atheists. It may be true that the reasons for applying this rule might not be the same, but the rule could still be practiced.

And consider:

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Bahá'í Faith:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. 1[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Buddhism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Christianity: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that circulated among the early Christian movement, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Confucianism:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Ancient Egyptian:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written. 2[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hinduism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Jainism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Judaism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 4[/FONT]

Some philosophers' statements are:

• Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
• Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
• Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
• Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
• Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[rjc34]

Knowledge is not predestination. I've been over this.


Why should an all knowing, all powerful God interfere with your life if you don't want Him to just to 'solve evil'?

Of course you leave out the all important bit about defining your god out of existence. You have him properties than cannot co-exist, like a married bachelor. Your god, as you define him, does not exist.

If knowledge is not predestination then he holds no such knowledge. Simple logic.

And if there was an all powerful being up there I'd definitely want him interfering and solving all the evil! Let's go back to the metaphorical garden of eden!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Christian morality cannot be had by an atheist because it recognizes God where an atheist believes there is none.

Naturally, but what exactly is it? What are the moral precepts of Christian morality? If it can't be held by an atheist because it requires one to believe in God, is it things like "Only believe in the God of the Bible"?

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

i agree


many could have a form of godliness

but the TRUTH IS NOT THEREin



hm hm

Perhaps not all of Christian morality, if you are including rules such as "Love God". But some rules may be practiced.

If an example is: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", this can certainly be practiced by atheists. It may be true that the reasons for applying this rule might not be the same, but the rule could still be practiced.

And consider:

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Bahá'í Faith:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. 1[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Buddhism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Christianity: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that circulated among the early Christian movement, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Confucianism:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Ancient Egyptian:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written. 2[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hinduism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Jainism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Judaism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 4[/FONT]

Some philosophers' statements are:

• Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
• Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
• Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
• Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
• Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[chris4243]

Perhaps not all of Christian morality, if you are including rules such as "Love God". But some rules may be practiced.

If an example is: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", this can certainly be practiced by atheists. It may be true that the reasons for applying this rule might not be the same, but the rule could still be practiced.

And consider:

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Bahá'í Faith:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. 1[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Buddhism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Christianity: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that circulated among the early Christian movement, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Confucianism:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Ancient Egyptian:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written. 2[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Hinduism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 3[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Jainism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Judaism: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 4[/FONT]

Some philosophers' statements are:

• Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
• Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
• Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
• Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
• Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

eudaimonia,

Mark

Lot's of disciples of Christ out there!
John13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

ok

chris

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Lot's of disciples of Christ out there!
John13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

OR completely separate cultures and peoples forming their own religious beliefs based on the factors present in their environments. Some of them even before Christianity existed. Or that..

 

[DarwinSixSixSix]

of course it does. Do you really think we needed a "god" to tell us that killing is bad? or raping some one? come on seriously i think society would be much of the same without a "god" that dictated our morals from the beginning. After all even with god did not stop priests from molesting children and the Church from killing innocent "heretics."

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

hm hm


i read a topic of



why the age of 18 yrs old to watch porn

is it good .... no///


laws of the world are contradictory anyways


paedophile are a rapist


but a famous NFl player is just listed in registered as a sex offender

of course it does. Do you really think we needed a "god" to tell us that killing is bad? or raping some one? come on seriously i think society would be much of the same without a "god" that dictated our morals from the beginning. After all even with god did not stop priests from molesting children and the Church from killing innocent "heretics."

 

[rjc34]

.