Does morality exist without God?

[variant]

I have to say that this appears to be a very finely crafted post. I would add a morality that would seem to be hideous to humans given our limited knowledge and very temporal perspective might on the other hand seem by us to be completely just and right if we were, among other superlatives, omniscient, all-seeing and timeless.

I don't think I could be a just judge of G-d under those circumstances, even if I was so inclined, which I am most definitely not. I love Him...

I call this the problem of limited imagination.

You can't fathom the thought of an objectively wrong God so you choose to ignore the possibility outright.

God can not possibly be so far outside your comprehension that it can never be wrong by definition, because, if God is beyond your comprehension to judge it's actions poorly then God is also outside of your ability to judge it as an ultimate good.

If it is God's power is what makes it right then morality is arbitrary and might is what makes God right, but this doesn't mean God is objectively moral, just that God is powerful enough that it's say so can stand in for an ultimate morality.

 

[rsduncan]

I call this the problem of limited imagination.

You can't fathom the thought of an objectively wrong God so you choose to ignore the possibility outright.

God can not possibly be so far outside your comprehension that it can never be wrong by definition, because, if God is beyond your comprehension to judge it's actions poorly then God is also outside of your ability to judge it as an ultimate good.

If it is God's power is what makes it right then morality is arbitrary and might is what makes God right, but this doesn't mean God is objectively moral, just that God is powerful enough that it's say so can stand in for an ultimate morality.

I take it then that you feel you have the right and that you are fully qualified to be G-d's judge???

 

[Skavau]

I take it then that you feel you have the right and that you are fully qualified to be G-d's judge???

For myself, I feel I have the right to question claims made about God's moral character.

 

[variant]

I take it then that you feel you have the right and that you are fully qualified to be G-d's judge???

I don't believe in the concept, I judge intellectual systems such as your religion in a detached manner, you are the one claiming the right to Judge an actual God. And you assert that the judgment must be one of approval regardless of evidence, I have just been following your logic.

You have judged it to be good, and it's actions beyond reproach regardless of appearance, due to incomprehensible superiority.

I am merely making the point that incomprehensible is incomprehencable so you can not judge God to be good either.

 

[rsduncan]

For myself, I feel I have the right to question claims made about God's moral character.

I'll leave the matter entirely between you and Him, then...

 

[Skavau]

I'll leave the matter entirely between you and Him, then...

And with that, you necessarily depart from the discussion. If you negate the 'objective lawgiver' from being questioned or refuse anyone permission to question it with you then you concede that you cannot defend it.

 

[rsduncan]

And with that, you necessarily depart from the discussion. If you negate the 'objective lawgiver' from being questioned or refuse anyone permission to question it with you then you concede that you cannot defend it.

You are free to judge G-d all you want. I just don't think you will come off too well...

 

[Skavau]

You are free to judge G-d all you want. I just don't think you will come off too well...

And why would that be? This sounds like a warning, but certainly does not do my depiction of 'God' any favours.

 

[rsduncan]

And why would that be? This sounds like a warning, but certainly does not do my depiction of 'God' any favours.

Yes, it is a warning. Feel free to take it or leave it. You don't see yourself as anything but good, therefore you won't come to G-d for absolution and the opportunity to see His love manifest in your life. What's G-d to do then? G-d sees human beings quite differently that you do, and personally, I consider the evil of mankind to be self-evident. So yes, I agree with Him, and yes, I can concieve of crimes that do indeed warrant eternal punishment...

 

[Exial]

So yes, I agree with Him, and yes, I can concieve of crimes that do indeed warrant eternal punishment...

Is not believing in your god one of those crimes?

 

[Skavau]

Yes, it is a warning.

And what do you believe the consequences of attempting to judge 'God' are? Keep in mind that from my perspective, as both an atheist and an anti-theist I am merely judging a concept known as God and the notion of supernatural immunity from criticism that he has had bestowed upon him by his followers. I, like variant am acting as observer responding to various concepts of God as proposed by theists. Some theists would disregard the notion of hell, whereas others revel in the prospect of non-believers frying in it. In this I am 'guilty' of nothing more than making assessments of what people propose a concept to be. I find the notion of supernatural arbiter that decrees, controls and commands all moral authority as incoherent, arbitrary and at worst, tyrannical.

Feel free to take it or leave it. You don't see yourself as anything but good, therefore you won't come to G-d for absolution and the opportunity to see His love manifest in your life.

I feel free to chew on it rather than take it or leave it, if I may.

In addition, I don't see myself as wholly good. I see myself as trying to be good, but not absolutely good.

What's G-d to do then?

A concept proposed by others. I am also ignostic, so i don't actually have a definition personally.

G-d sees human beings quite differently that you do, and personally, I consider the evil of mankind to be self-evident. So yes, I agree with Him, and yes, I can concieve of crimes that do indeed warrant eternal punishment...

What crimes warrant eternal punishment?

 

[SithDoughnut]

The "morality" of a lynch mob. How charming.

Nice spin there, referencing lynching when that has nothing to do with it. You have two real options if you want to set up some kind of moral base in a society. You can make it somewhat democratic like the west has, where the whole society has an input upon the collective moral compass. Or, you can pass all that power on to one person, make them unquestionable, and establish them as a moral dictator, which is what many religions do. Both have their positives and their negatives, but seeing as even most religious people in the West support democracy, I think the former is more desirable.

Neither is perfect, but then neither are humans. I'm not necessarily arguing that subjective morality is better, but it's what we have. Morals, by their very nature, are relative. Perhaps humanity is a lynch mob.

At least it's more honest than your "I do good cause it feels good" sleight of hand.

I didn't say that. I don't think anyone did.

 

[rsduncan]

And what do you believe the consequences of attempting to judge 'God' are? Keep in mind that from my perspective, as both an atheist and an anti-theist I am merely judging a concept known as God and the notion of supernatural immunity from criticism that he has had bestowed upon him by his followers. I, like variant am acting as observer responding to various concepts of God as proposed by theists. Some theists would disregard the notion of hell, whereas others revel in the prospect of non-believers frying in it. In this I am 'guilty' of nothing more than making assessments of what people propose a concept to be. I find the notion of supernatural arbiter that decrees, controls and commands all moral authority as incoherent, arbitrary and at worst, tyrannical.


I feel free to chew on it rather than take it or leave it, if I may.

In addition, I don't see myself as wholly good. I see myself as trying to be good, but not absolutely good.


A concept proposed by others. I am also ignostic, so i don't actually have a definition personally.


What crimes warrant eternal punishment?

Ask G-d...

 

[Skavau]

Ask G-d...

I can't. I'm asking you as you said that some crimes warrant eternal punishment.

What are those?

 

[rsduncan]

I can't. I'm asking you as you said that some crimes warrant eternal punishment.

What are those?

I think you'll have that opportunity eventually, and you will get to answer a few questions posed by Him as well...

 

[Skavau]

I think you'll have that opportunity eventually, and you will get to answer a few questions posed by Him as well...

Is there a particular reason you won't share your opinion on what constitutes eternal torture?

 

[Exial]

Perhaps he is afraid to state what he truly feels.

 

[Zebra1552]

I get the feeling this is nothing more than a disagreement on semantics. Remove the affiliation with God found in Christianity and you have humanism.

No, see, obedience and relationship generally aren't synonyms.

But you did ask rather obtusely why "do you have a lot of atheists who try to shout down Christianity and Christians at every opportunity they get?" The amount of atheists who do that are no larger than the amount of Christians that try to discredit and smear atheists as amoral.

That doesn't answer the question.

Yes. So? Not all atheists are anti-theists. So you should be wondering why there is a trend of anti-theism amongst atheists, not whining per se about the majority of atheists.

I'm not whining. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not even talking about a majority. I specifically stated 'many atheists who' and then described what it was I am confused about. And yet with all this bickering you've done, I still have no answer.

 

[Skavau]

Anti-theism is a reaction towards theism by those who have been hurt by it, or those who disagree with it. It isn't hard to figure out that in a somewhat religious society, those who are non-religious are going to include those who also anti-religious.

 

[rsduncan]

Anti-theism is a reaction towards theism by those who have been hurt by it, or those who disagree with it. It isn't hard to figure out that in a somewhat religious society, those who are non-religious are going to include those who also anti-religious.

Are you into pain or something???