Does Monergism only concern salvation, or does it go farther than that?

[Mark Quayle]

I intend this question for other Monergists like myself, but welcome anyone to read and insert comments as they might wish. First, to get us on the same page, a short definition of Monergism that I accept --from https://www.theopedia.com/monergism
"Monergism ..... is a term for the belief that the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians. This view, held by Reformed and Calvinistic groups, sees salvation as the work of God alone, from first to last..."

Now the question: Does the fact of Monergism apply to Salvation alone, or does it apply to all Christian growth --obedience, knowledge, spiritual wisdom, sanctification, and so on?

Some of us say that we have no say in our regeneration --that God doesn't need our permission to "install" the Holy Spirit in our hearts. And of course even synergists (i.e. those who believe the will of the person "cooperates" with the Spirit of God in regeneration) can easily say that we have no input in the resurrection. But what about between the two 'events'?

I submit that God does the whole work, not just the whole work of salvation, but the WHOLE work of sanctification, in all its particulars --in fact, all virtues and good works and growth of the Elect is the work of God.

Just as the Regenerated willingly believes as a result of being regenerated, and so that faith which itself is the work of the Spirit within us, is not our act of will, but produces our belief, I think ANY good we do, is the work of God in us.

There are many reasons for why I think we live monergistically, as believers, and I hope they will come out if this discussion proceeds. To post them all now would make this op too long.

 

[com7fy8]

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

 

[Mark Quayle]

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Thank you. That's one of my reasons for what I believe. --It is GOD!

 

[com7fy8]

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God." (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

 

[Mark Quayle]

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God." (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

Exactly, but, does that sound to you like although it is God who works all things, that our having sufficiency means that God "needs" our part synergistically, or is our part still the RESULT and not a cause of sanctification and godliness. I'm not asking this well, but I'm driving at something that has been put to me rather dramatically in the last many years.

 

[com7fy8]

is our part still the RESULT and not a cause of sanctification and godliness.

All that is good and real is the result of God's doing, and nothing right started with how we were while without God. It would be "impossible with men" to have something right enough to cause God to do all His good in us > we can consider > Luke 18:27.

So, in case you care to get into what, really, has motivated and caused God to create and then save us >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I see how Jesus was God's motivation to create us . . . with hope of changing us to become how Jesus is so pleasing and intimately relating in love.

So . . . first . . . we were created as the result of how pleased our Father is with His Son Jesus. Then our Father has saved us as the result of how pleased He is with Jesus and is motivated to change us to become like Christ.

And so > if we have been saved and have become obedient and loving the way God desires, this is the result of God changing us to become submissive to Him and seeking Him and become and love like His own Son Jesus.

 

[Mark Quayle]

All that is good and real is the result of God's doing, and nothing right started with how we were while without God. It would be "impossible with men" to have something right enough to cause God to do all His good in us > we can consider > Luke 18:27.

So, in case you care to get into what, really, has motivated and caused God to create and then save us >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I see how Jesus was God's motivation to create us . . . with hope of changing us to become how Jesus is so pleasing and intimately relating in love.

So . . . first . . . we were created as the result of how pleased our Father is with His Son Jesus. Then our Father has saved us as the result of how pleased He is with Jesus and is motivated to change us to become like Christ.

And so > if we have been saved and have become obedient and loving the way God desires, this is the result of God changing us to become submissive to Him and seeking Him and become and love like His own Son Jesus.

Thank you. That is very compelling, and we have only God to thank for that.

 

[com7fy8]

we have only God to thank for that.

It is written,

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

I consider how our hearts were in slavery to sin, our wills of our hearts not free to choose what is good. We were in darkness so we could not see the good of God we could choose. Our representation of God, by the way, was wrong > making Him seem like Satan. For example, ones treat God like He is distant and impersonal, just keeping records on us. So, the one we were making choices about was a counterfeit of God. We can still make Him mainly theoretical!!

So, indeed our hearts were deceived, actually making choices between wrong choices >

"'The heart is deceitful above all things,
. And desperately wicked.
. Who can know it?'" (Jeremiah 17:9)

And God is the One to be thanked, then, that we "trusted in Christ" > Ephesians 1:12. God is the One to thank, to worship, for how we trusted in Jesus for salvation. This is a practical meaning of God being the One who has changed us so we have obeyed Jesus for salvation.

But this leaves us with your question of if now all the good of salvation depends purely and only on God. I have offered scriptures to support that all depends on God alone.

But, then, what are practical things which this means? We have been theoretical; if you wish, we can get more practical.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is written,

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

I consider how our hearts were in slavery to sin, our wills of our hearts not free to choose what is good. We were in darkness so we could not see the good of God we could choose. Our representation of God, by the way, was wrong > making Him seem like Satan. For example, ones treat God like He is distant and impersonal, just keeping records on us. So, the one we were making choices about was a counterfeit of God. We can still make Him mainly theoretical!!

So, indeed our hearts were deceived, actually making choices between wrong choices >

"'The heart is deceitful above all things,
. And desperately wicked.
. Who can know it?'" (Jeremiah 17:9)

And God is the One to be thanked, then, that we "trusted in Christ" > Ephesians 1:12. God is the One to thank, to worship, for how we trusted in Jesus for salvation. This is a practical meaning of God being the One who has changed us so we have obeyed Jesus for salvation.

But this leaves us with your question of if now all the good of salvation depends purely and only on God. I have offered scriptures to support that all depends on God alone.

But, then, what are practical things which this means? We have been theoretical; if you wish, we can get more practical.

As far as I know, Monergism is pretty universally accepted in Reformed circles. They are pretty specific that man's choice/trust in Christ "for salvation" (as you put it), is not in any way a cause resulting in the chooser's salvation. (For example, many of them will say our choice to "open the door when he knocks" has to do with communion with Christ, not salvation. Others will say the passage is simply about the common view of one's heart opening to Christ, and not the initial response to an invitation, resulting in salvation).

Your several references to trusting, obeying, etc Christ "for salvation" is why I am saying this. I don't know if you meant it that way or not, but Monergism insists, as the definition in my OP said, that the whole work is of God, from first to last. Our trusting Christ "for salvation" is not a link in the chain of events causing salvation. The ONLY cause is God.

To be more specific God chose us from the foundations of the earth, not out of foresight, but out of foreplanning, to be shown mercy and grace. When the time was right according to his plan, he "installed" (for lack of a better word) the Holy Spirit within us, and THAT is what changed us, in new birth. Our obedience to our understanding of the Gospel, (and even to what we don't understand that is nevertheless true of the Gospel,) our repentance, our trust in Christ for salvation, our love for Christ, and desire to be with God and to know him, our obedience, these are all subsequent to regeneration; they are all a result of the faith that is the work of the Holy Spirit in us, and of the changed nature that we have in Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is written,

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

I consider how our hearts were in slavery to sin, our wills of our hearts not free to choose what is good. We were in darkness so we could not see the good of God we could choose. Our representation of God, by the way, was wrong > making Him seem like Satan. For example, ones treat God like He is distant and impersonal, just keeping records on us. So, the one we were making choices about was a counterfeit of God. We can still make Him mainly theoretical!!

So, indeed our hearts were deceived, actually making choices between wrong choices >

"'The heart is deceitful above all things,
. And desperately wicked.
. Who can know it?'" (Jeremiah 17:9)

And God is the One to be thanked, then, that we "trusted in Christ" > Ephesians 1:12. God is the One to thank, to worship, for how we trusted in Jesus for salvation. This is a practical meaning of God being the One who has changed us so we have obeyed Jesus for salvation.

But this leaves us with your question of if now all the good of salvation depends purely and only on God. I have offered scriptures to support that all depends on God alone.

But, then, what are practical things which this means? We have been theoretical; if you wish, we can get more practical.

By the way, I very much appreciated your remarks concerning how we can still treat God theoretically; even as redeemed we do so, as "the old man" drives us to do. This touches on one of my heart's biggest aches concerning the truth, or meaning, of the Gospel. It is a theme constant through scripture that God keeps pointing out, and that Jesus emphasized in "without me you can do nothing".

We were not made for this life, but for the next. This life is a necessary "stepping stone" resulting in the next. But to say that we can do nothing without him is literal, in Spiritual matters. It is not enough to say that we must then enlist his aid, or hand him the controls, or even to die to sin and live for Christ. What Paul said was, "for to me to live IS Christ." (my emphasis). So I say, we are not even complete beings, apart from Christ, but even as redeemed we still are not until we see him as he is in the next life. It is for THIS we are made, to be one with him.

 

[com7fy8]

They are pretty specific that man's choice/trust in Christ "for salvation" (as you put it), is not in any way a cause resulting in the chooser's salvation. (For example, many of them will say our choice to "open the door when he knocks" has to do with communion with Christ, not salvation. Others will say the passage is simply about the common view of one's heart opening to Christ, and not the initial response to an invitation, resulting in salvation).

What I think is that God causes the person to trust in Jesus. And it is essential that the person trusts in Jesus for salvation. But this trusting does not cause the salvation, but it is caused by God who is causing all. Trusting is included. And this fits with God being "love" > personal. He has us personally sharing in His process.

About a person opening when Jesus knocks > I would say God causes the person to open to Jesus, for salvation and then for fellowship.

The Book of Acts says the Lord opened Lydia's heart so she attended to what Paul said. So, her heart being opened was necessary, though not the cause > it was included in what God was causing. And so it was necessary for her to do what God caused her to do.

And again we see how personal God is . . . right in one's heart.

Trusting in Christ is an essential action by a person in order to have salvation, but God is the One who causes the person to trust in Christ > God works in the person, I would say like how He works then in someone who has become a Christian >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus emphasized in "without me you can do nothing".

To me, this means Jesus does not want us to do anything except in sharing with Him in us . . . and with one another as members of one another - - - as family, then

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I think is that God causes the person to trust in Jesus. And it is essential that the person trusts in Jesus for salvation. But this trusting does not cause the salvation, but it is caused by God who is causing all. Trusting is included. And this fits with God being "love" > personal. He has us personally sharing in His process.

About a person opening when Jesus knocks > I would say God causes the person to open to Jesus, for salvation and then for fellowship.

The Book of Acts says the Lord opened Lydia's heart so she attended to what Paul said. So, her heart being opened was necessary, though not the cause > it was included in what God was causing. And so it was necessary for her to do what God caused her to do.

And again we see how personal God is . . . right in one's heart.

Trusting in Christ is an essential action by a person in order to have salvation, but God is the One who causes the person to trust in Christ > God works in the person, I would say like how He works then in someone who has become a Christian >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

To my mind, here's the thing: the means of salvation from first to last MUST be of God, and not of man. Man does decide, in fact Reformed Theology insists on it, but ONLY as a result, and that decision is not a link in the chain of causation resulting in Salvation.

Further, Reformed Theology gets more specific by saying that the Holy Spirit is given to (placed within) the lost Elect, causing new birth ("regeneration"), and salvific faith. Neither of those two (regeneration and faith) are generated by the person, but by the Holy Spirit. Your description seems to allow for either way, no word as to the source of the things that accompany salvation.

But the purpose of this thread is to find out if the subsequent things, that are not usually themselves considered Gospel-related, are of the same nature; are they also, just as is the salvation of the individual, the work of God alone, or is the decision of man the hinge upon which the success of obedience, growth and Godliness turns?

 

[Mark Quayle]

To me, this means Jesus does not want us to do anything except in sharing with Him in us . . . and with one another as members of one another - - - as family, then

Why can it not be more literal than simply "what he wants"-- instead, being a mere statement of fact and a proscription against assuming one can do anything worthy on their own, and more, that anything worthy is the work of God, no matter how forcefully one decides to do a thing?

As I have tried and failed, even vowed and then changed my mind, to obey in this or that area of life, (this life-long story goes on and on, ad nauseum), I have come to realize that every success and satisfaction, whether small or big, has been the work of God, and most definitely not the result of any ability or integrity of my own decision. In fact, probably more often than not, the struggles against temptation and the old nature are accompanied by my heart's cry for help from God, but even that I see as a will for what is good that itself is caused by God --not by me.

My decisions, then, are a result --and not a cause-- of the work of God. I myself am a result, and appear to be more of a passenger than a driver of any good I do.

ALL CREDIT GOES TO GOD.

 

[com7fy8]

Further, Reformed Theology gets more specific by saying that the Holy Spirit is given to (placed within) the lost Elect, causing new birth ("regeneration"), and salvific faith. Neither of those two (regeneration and faith) are generated by the person, but by the Holy Spirit. Your description seems to allow for either way, no word as to the source of the things that accompany salvation.

It is all the Holy Spirit, for all that is right.

But the purpose of this thread is to find out if the subsequent things, that are not usually themselves considered Gospel-related, are of the same nature; are they also, just as is the salvation of the individual, the work of God alone, or is the decision of man the hinge upon which the success of obedience, growth and Godliness turns?

It still is all the Holy Spirit for all that is right.

And God alone is good, to be able to initiate all that is right, including submissiveness to the Holy Spirit.

By the way, God has all that is good, including of holiness. So, in order to be truly holy, we need to be sharing with God. And He alone has the goodness to get this started, plus to then keep us developing and loving in holiness which is of His love . . . not of our gestures and congratulating ourselves!

All is thanks to God, then > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5.

 

[com7fy8]

Why can it not be more literal than simply "what he wants"-- instead, being a mere statement of fact and a proscription against assuming one can do anything worthy on their own, and more, that anything worthy is the work of God, no matter how forcefully one decides to do a thing?

I think Paul is very clear how only God produces what is "for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

And therefore Paul knew he needed to always labor according to how God in Him was laboring > Colossians 1:28-29.

But, of course, God was the One having Paul succeed in laboring according to God's working.

As I have tried and failed, even vowed and then changed my mind, to obey in this or that area of life, (this life-long story goes on and on, ad nauseum), I have come to realize that every success and satisfaction, whether small or big, has been the work of God, and most definitely not the result of any ability or integrity of my own decision. In fact, probably more often than not, the struggles against temptation and the old nature are accompanied by my heart's cry for help from God, but even that I see as a will for what is good that itself is caused by God --not by me.

We can know who is in control, but knowing is not enough!! We need how God succeeds.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We can know who is in control, but knowing is not enough!! We need how God succeeds.

Amen that!