• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does Modern Science Align with the Bible?

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
@daq To add on another observation of degrees in a circle and square I do know that you can have angles greater or less than 360° Degrees but, I don't see how it's possible for either geometrical shape to contain more than that. I mean sure you can have many revolutions which will give you degrees greater than 360° Degrees, yet at the end of the day when you divide those number of revolutions by the number of degrees in a circle it comes back to 360° Degrees.

Perhaps let's go about this a little differently. Suppose you take a 360 degree circle and divide each degree into tenths: how many parts have you divided the circle into? The answer would be 3600 parts, (10*360=3600). Now you can have 1.0, 1.1, 1.2. 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 degrees in your circle and if you do the same with all 360 degrees in your circle then you have 3600 parts.

What is the difference if you say your circle has 360 degrees and someone else comes along and decides to count each part of your circle as a separate degree, and therefore, they have a circle of 3600 degrees?

The difference is only in nomenclature: you say a degree is one amount while the other person says that the degrees in his or her circle are a tenth of the value of the degrees in your circle.

That's really all it is, a difference in nomenclature: but this difference becomes critical when you are trying to figure out what a builder was doing and thinking five or six thousand years ago. You might measure an angle in an ancient building or monument that, on your modern 360 degree circle, amounts to 25.71429 degrees, and you are scratching your head asking why this odd angle? Why did the builder(s) choose this angle? While indeed it might merely be a difference in nomenclature: the difference between your definition of a degree and the architects definition of a degree.

So you do more research, and find more clues, and decide to convert your circle to a 364 degree circle to see if that is what the builder was using.

This is a very simple conversion in decimal form: divide by 360 and then multiply by 364 because pi and the circumference-size of the circle do not change.

25.71429°/360 = 0.07142858333...
0.07142858333*364 = 26.000004333...

Bingo: the architect was more likely using a circle of 364 degrees and especially if you begin to find whole, halves, and quarter number values in other angular measurements using the same conversion method, (I suspect the architect in this case probably divided the 364 degree circle into sevenths of degrees).

It is the same angle either way, but you were calling it 25.71429 degrees according to your 360 degree circle, while the builder or architect was calling it 26 degrees on his 364 degree circle. His circle had more degrees in it than yours, and thus, his geometry and angular measurements were slightly different than yours.
 
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps let's go about this a little differently. Suppose you take a 360 degree circle and divide each degree into tenths: how many parts have you divided the circle into? The answer would be 3600 parts, (10*360=3600). Now you can have 1.0, 1.1, 1.2. 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 degrees in your circle and if you do the same with all 360 degrees in your circle then you have 3600 parts.

What is the difference if you say your circle has 360 degrees and someone else comes along and decides to count each part of your circle as a separate degree, and therefore, they have a circle of 3600 degrees?

The difference is only in nomenclature: you say a degree is one amount while the other person says that the degrees in his or her circle are a tenth of the value of the degrees in your circle.

That's really all it is, a difference in nomenclature: but this difference becomes critical when you are trying to figure out what a builder was doing and thinking five or six thousand years ago. You might measure an angle in an ancient building or monument that, on your modern 360 degree circle, amounts to 25.71429 degrees, and you are scratching your head asking why this odd angle? Why did the builder(s) choose this angle? While indeed it might merely be a difference in nomenclature: the difference between your definition of a degree and the architects definition of a degree.

So you do more research, and find more clues, and decide to convert your circle to a 364 degree circle to see if that is what the builder was using.

This is a very simple conversion in decimal form: divide by 360 and then multiply by 364 because pi and the circumference-size of the circle do not change.

25.71429°/360 = 0.07142858333...
0.07142858333*364 = 26.000004333...

Bingo: the architect was more likely using a circle of 364 degrees and especially if you begin to find whole, halves, and quarter number values in other angular measurements using the same conversion method, (I suspect the architect in this case probably divided the 364 degree circle into sevenths of degrees).

It is the same angle either way, but you were calling it 25.71429 degrees according to your 360 degree circle, while the builder or architect was calling it 26 degrees on his 364 degree circle. His circle had more degrees in it than yours, and thus, his geometry and angular measurements were slightly different than yours.
Hmmm...while one can definitely divide the degrees into smaller units it still must add up to the original whole, in the case of our specific discussion the 360° Degrees. Yes 10 × 360 = 3,600 which means you now have 3,600 Parts but, this doesn't change the number of degrees in the circle.

A good example of this is if we look at the astronomy of Jasher and the Joshua and the number of hours in a day. According to Jasher the long day of Joshua lasted for 36 Moments whereas the book of Joshua simply records it as 1 Day. In the book of Nehemiah we see that the day was divided into 4 Quarters, and in the New Testament Jesus tells us that 1 Day = 12 Hours:

1 Day = 36 Moments
1 Day = 12 Hours
1 Day = 4 Quarters


1 Hour = 60 Minutes
1 Hour = 3,600 Seconds


We see with these numbers that they don't change the overall amount of time in a day or hour no matter how much or little you divide them up. In a similar fashion the number of seconds in an hour do not change the number of minutes in an hour:

36 Moments ÷ 4 Quarters = 9 Moments
12 Hours ÷ 4 Quarters = 3 Hours
4 Quarters ÷ 4 Quarters = 1 Quarter

36 Moments ÷ 12 Hours = 3 Moments/Hour
60 Minutes ÷ 3 Moments = 20 Minutes
1 Moment = 20 Minutes
12 Hours × 60 Minutes = 720 Minutes
36 Moments × 20 Minutes = 720 Minutes


Believe me brother daq I truly want to be onboard with you but, the math simply isn't allowing me to...but I'm trying to see it from your perspective.
 
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Hmmm...while one can definitely divide the degrees into smaller units it still must add up to the original whole, in the case of our specific discussion the 360° Degrees. Yes 10 × 360 = 3,600 which means you now have 3,600 Parts but, this doesn't change the number of degrees in the circle.

A good example of this is if we look at the astronomy of Jasher and the Joshua and the number of hours in a day. According to Jasher the long day of Joshua lasted for 36 Moments whereas the book of Joshua simply records it as 1 Day. In the book of Nehemiah we see that the day was divided into 4 Quarters, and in the New Testament Jesus tells us that 1 Day = 12 Hours:

1 Day = 36 Moments
1 Day = 12 Hours
1 Day = 4 Quarters


1 Hour = 60 Minutes
1 Hour = 3,600 Seconds


We see with these numbers that they don't change the overall amount of time in a day or hour no matter how much or little you divide them up. In a similar fashion the number of seconds in an hour do not change the number of minutes in an hour:

36 Moments ÷ 4 Quarters = 9 Moments
12 Hours ÷ 4 Quarters = 3 Hours
4 Quarters ÷ 4 Quarters = 1 Quarter

36 Moments ÷ 12 Hours = 3 Moments/Hour
60 Minutes ÷ 3 Moments = 20 Minutes
1 Moment = 20 Minutes
12 Hours × 60 Minutes = 720 Minutes
36 Moments × 20 Minutes = 720 Minutes


Believe me brother daq I truly want to be onboard with you but, the math simply isn't allowing me to...but I'm trying to see it from your perspective.

The hours of the day change quite a bit in length throughout the year because the day is divided into twelve hours no matter how much daylight there may actually be in each day of the year. Your math may look as though it works well on a clock or a modern timepiece but in reality it only works two days out of the year: vernal and autumnal equilux, the two days of actual equal day and equal night, (which are not the same as the vernal and autumnal equinoxes).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Humble Penny
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
The hours of the day change quite a bit in length throughout the year because the day is divided into twelve hours no matter how much daylight there may actually be in each day of the year. Your math may look as though it works well on a clock or a modern timepiece but in reality it only works two days out of the year: vernal and autumnal equilux, the two days of actual equal day and equal night, (which are not the same as the vernal and autumnal equinoxes).
Yes I am aware of the changes of daylight in the year, I was simply demonstrating that the overall number of hours in a day remain the same. However if we look at the year holistically then we will see that the number of hours actually averages out to twelve hours:

  1. 13 Hours
  2. 14 Hours
  3. 15 Hours (Summer Solstice)
  4. 14 Hours
  5. 13 Hours
  6. 12 Hours (Autumnal Equinox)
  7. 11 Hours
  8. 10 Hours
  9. 9 Hours (Winter Solstice)
  10. 10 Hours
  11. 11 Hours
  12. 12 Hours (Vernal Equinox)

The sum of these hours is 144 Hours ÷ 12 Months = 12 Hours. Now this number 144 is clearly significant as is 12 for they clearly are tied to the 144,000 in Revelation and the 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel...this cannot be denied.

It is because of these amazing connections that I've been moved to reanalyze the Word of God and re-educate myself on the true mathematics and sciences of the Bible.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: daq
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Yes I am aware of the changes of daylight in the year, I was simply demonstrating that the overall number of hours in a day remain the same. However if we look at the year holistically then we will see that the number of hours actually averages out to twelve hours:
  1. 13 Hours
  2. 14 Hours
  3. 15 Hours(Summer Solstice)
  4. 14 Hours
  5. 13 Hours
  6. 12 Hours (Autumnal Equinox)
  7. 11 Hours
  8. 10 Hours
  9. 9 Hours (Winter Solstice)
  10. 10 Hours
  11. 11 Hours
  12. 12 Hours (Vernal Equinox)
The sum of these hours is 144 Hours ÷ 12 Months = 12 Hours. Now this number 144 is clearly significant as is 12 for they clearly are tied to the 144,000 in Revelation and the 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel...this cannot be denied.

It is because of these amazing connections that I've been moved to reanalyze the Word of God and re-educate myself on the true mathematics and sciences of the Bible.

And how many days are in the calendar year which you believe to be the true calendar? 364, right?

And how many days are in each of the four seasons of the same year? Is it not 91 days in each of the four quadrants of the circle of the year which you believe to be the correct calendar year according to the Book of the Luminaries?

And would that not be the same as what I have already presented herein? That's why I said that the 364 degree circle is much closer to being earth commensurate. If you count each day of the year as a degree in a circle there isn't any difference between the year which you believe to be correct and the 364 degree circle because each of the four quadrants of your own year circle, which represent the four seasons, form a 91 degree right angle at the center of the circle. The 91 days of each season are 91 degrees.

year-circle.png


Even if this may not seem to be a logical conclusion to you, I do believe it would have very likely been a logical conclusion for the ancients. However minutes and seconds of an hour are not defined in the scripture.

There are certain words similar to what we might call a second but they are more in the sense of the blink or wink of an eye, (see Exodus 33:5 for Hebrew and 1 Corinthians 15:52 for Greek). A blink of the eye is faster than a second: if you tried, you could probably get three quick blinks into a single second.

Minutes and seconds are more modern time measurements which could not have been the same in every hour of every day in an ancient society using sundials to keep track of the hours of the day. The properly marked lines on a sundial automatically divide the day into hours regardless of the time of year or length of each hour of the day.
 
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Yes I am aware of the changes of daylight in the year, I was simply demonstrating that the overall number of hours in a day remain the same. However if we look at the year holistically then we will see that the number of hours actually averages out to twelve hours:
  1. 13 Hours
  2. 14 Hours
  3. 15 Hours(Summer Solstice)
  4. 14 Hours
  5. 13 Hours
  6. 12 Hours (Autumnal Equinox)
  7. 11 Hours
  8. 10 Hours
  9. 9 Hours (Winter Solstice)
  10. 10 Hours
  11. 11 Hours
  12. 12 Hours (Vernal Equinox)
The sum of these hours is 144 Hours ÷ 12 Months = 12 Hours. Now this number 144 is clearly significant as is 12 for they clearly are tied to the 144,000 in Revelation and the 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel...this cannot be denied.

It is because of these amazing connections that I've been moved to reanalyze the Word of God and re-educate myself on the true mathematics and sciences of the Bible.
To add onto what I've said if you divide 144...

144 ÷ 4 = 36
36 ÷ 6 = 6
6 ÷ 6 = 1


This is reminiscent of the 36 Moments, 60 Minutes, and 60 Seconds. And one cannot help but see that 60 is connected to the number of sunrises and sunsets every two months:
  1. 30 Days (30 Days)
  2. 30 Days (60 Days)
  3. 30 Days (90 Days)
  4. 30 Days (120 Days)
  5. 30 Days (150 Days)
  6. 30 Days (180 Days)
  7. 30 Days (210 Days)
  8. 30 Days (240 Days)
  9. 30 Days (270 Days)
  10. 30 Days (300 Days)
  11. 30 Days (330 Days)
  12. 30 Days (360 Days)
From a theological perspective this would truly reflect the oneness and unity of God, Wisdom, The Word, and the Holy Spirit: 4 Eternal Beings! And it is through their unity that the world was created, and we read of this clearly in the creation week when God on the sixth day spoke with them saying:

"Let Us make man in Our Image and Likeness.[...]".

And when Adam wedded Eve Moses tells us:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife. And the two of them shall become one (echad) flesh"

So then the marriage between man and woman is to reflect the unity between God, Wisdom, the Word, and the Holy Spirit!

1 + 1 = 2
2 × 2 = 4
4 ÷ 4 = 1
4 ÷ 2 = 2
4 ÷ 1 = 4


When you add up the sum, product, and quotients of each equation it amounts to thirteen and what is special about this number?

1 Year = 4 Quarters
1 Year = 52 Weeks
1 Quarter = 13 Weeks


YHWH
10 = י
5 = ה
ו = 6
5 = ה
26


When you stack the Hebrew letters in a vertical line they make the image of a man and we see that half a year is 26 Weeks and a full year is 52 Weeks meaning that God makes up the beginning and end of the year. When we look at the name of our Savior in Hebrew and Greek we have something interesting:

Hebrew
YeHVSHuA
10 = י
5 = ה
6 = ו
300 = ש
70 = ע
391


YeSHUA
10 = י
300 = ש
6 = ו
70 = ע
386


386 + 391 = 777

Greek
Ι = 10
Ε = 8
Σ = 200
Ο = 70
Υ = 400
Σ = 200

888


Now when we look at the number of Abraham's servants who helped him rescue his nephew lot we see interesting things in Hebrew and Greek...

300 = ש
10 = י
8 = ח


In the first two letters we have the name of Yeshua meaning "Yahweh saves", and in the final letter Chet it is connected to the Hebrew ChaYiM meaning "life": put together means "Yahweh saves life"!!! And how would Yahweh save our lives?

Τ = 300
Ι = 10
Η = 8


Now the Theta represents the Cross while the Iota and Eta represent the first two letters Iesous in Greek, meaning that Yahweh would save the life of mankind through the death of His Son Jesus Christ on the Cross!!!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
And how many days are in the calendar year which you believe to be the true calendar? 364, right?

And how many days are in each of the four seasons of the same year? Is it not 91 days in each of the four quadrants of the circle of the year which you believe to be the correct calendar year according to the Book of the Luminaries?

And would that not be the same as what I have already presented herein? That's why I said that the 364 degree circle is much closer to being earth commensurate. If you count each day of the year as a degree in a circle there isn't any difference between the year which you believe to be correct and the 364 degree circle because each of the four quadrants of your own year circle, which represent the four seasons, form a 91 degree right angle at the center of the circle. The 91 days of each season are 91 degrees.

View attachment 322716

Even if this may not seem to be a logical conclusion to you, I do believe it would have very likely been a logical conclusion for the ancients. However minutes and seconds of an hour are not defined in the scripture.

There are certain words similar to what we might call a second but they are more in the sense of the blink or wink of an eye, (see Exodus 33:5 for Hebrew and 1 Corinthians 15:52 for Greek). A blink of the eye is faster than a second: if you tried, you could probably get three quick blinks into a single second.

Minutes and seconds are more modern time measurements which could not have been the same in every hour of every day in an ancient society using sundials to keep track of the hours of the day. The properly marked lines on a sundial automatically divide the day into hours regardless of the time of year or length of each hour of the day.
Well I see the circle differently than you do because while I do believe in a 364 Day Solar Year I do see that the solstices and equinoxes are what give us the four extra days at the end of the year since those are the four times the sun changes it's position in the sky. That said just like you see in the four quarters of the circle and square these represent the four seasons points at the far end of the X-axis and the Y-axis: which means that make up the same 360° Degrees of the circle and square without causing the number of degrees to increase as they act as dividers of the year.

For these reasons you wouldn't reckon these four seasonal days until the end of the year.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Well I see the circle differently than you do because while info believe in a 364 Day Solar Year I do see that the solstices and equinoxes are what give us the four extra days at the end of the year since those are the four times the sun changes it's position in the sky. That said just like you see in the four quarters of the circle and square these represent the four seasons points at the far end of the X-axis and the Y-axis: which means that make up the same 360° Degrees of the circle and square without causing the number of degrees to increase as they act as dividers of the year.

For these reasons you wouldn't reckon these four seasonal days until the end of the year.

I actually do not reckon them that way but thought you might, (I just drew up that image file in about 15 minutes for this thread). I reckon them according to statements in Dvarim 1:1-3, multiple other passages in the Torah, and Shoftim (Judges) 11.

When the winter solstice reaches the eighth day of the tenth month it is leap year and a week is intercalated between the last day of the tenth month and the first day of the eleventh month. With the other four yearly intercalary days already in that position it makes eleven intercalary days in a leap year, (371 days of exactly 53 weeks so that the weekly Shabbat is never displaced). It is essentially the first and earliest form of a what is today known as a fiscal calendar.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Humble Penny
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I actually do not reckon them that way but thought you might, (I just drew up that image file in about 15 minutes for this thread). I reckon them according to statements in Dvarim 1:1-3, multiple other passages in the Torah, and Shoftim (Judges) 11.

When the winter solstice reaches the eighth day of the tenth month it is leap year and a week is intercalated between the last day of the tenth month and the first day of the eleventh month. With the other four yearly intercalary days already in that position it makes eleven intercalary days in a leap year, (371 days of exactly 53 weeks so that the weekly Shabbat is never displaced). It is essentially the first and earliest form of a what is today known as a fiscal calendar.
Well differences in views aside, while I'd like to side with you I can't see how you're coming to your conclusions without imposing modern ideas onto the Bible. From the narrative of the creation week it's clear that the luminaries existed two days before Adam was created: therefore this is before the Tower of Babel which means no nations nor their calendars would've existed at the time of Adam's creation; and seeing that Adam existed after the luminaries it's clear that man had no involvement in the calendar created by YHWH.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Well differences in views aside, while I'd like to side with you I can't see how you're coming to your conclusions without imposing modern ideas into the Bible. From the narrative of the creation week it's clear that the luminaries existed two days before Adam was created: therefore this is before the Tower of Babel which means no nations nor their calendars would've existed at the time of Adam's creation; and seeing that Adam existed after the luminaries it's clear that man had no involvement in the calendar created by YHWH.

I guess we don't understand Paul the same way in this matter but that's nothing new for a forum so large as this.

The first man Adam became a living soul: (Gen 2:7) the last Adam became a life-giving spirit (1Cor 15:45). Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual, (1Cor 15:46). Thus the first two chapters of Genesis are not so much a chronological order but rather need to be meshed together. The first man is of the earth, earthy: (Gen 2:7, 1Cor 15:47) the second man is of the heavens (Genesis 1:26-28, Psalms 8:4-8, 1 Corinthians 15:27-47, Hebrews 2:6-9).

As I think I may have said to you before: one would need to be able to see the days of creation in Gen 1 also as thousand-year great days to be able to see this. In this view the luminaries may not be what you might think they are.

No biggie, right? Your chronology of the world would only be off by about 6000 years, (plus that approximately 1500 years you omit between the first century and now).
: )
 
  • Like
Reactions: Humble Penny
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I guess we don't understand Paul the same way in this matter but that's nothing new for a forum so large as this.
Well people have been disagreement since the garden of Eden and there were only two people, but as the story of Adam and Eve teaches us our father and mother went astray when they each pursued their own ways and left the ways of God. My hope for this thread is to get people talking more and, thinking more about what the Bible has to say about all branches of knowledge versus what the world says.

I'm praying that we are moved to not lean on our own understanding and be led astray by not having our thoughts checked against, and rooted in the Word of God. But as you hinted "birds of a feather flock together" so can we really expect anything different to happen?

The first man Adam became a living soul: (Gen 2:7) the last Adam became a life-giving spirit (1Cor 15:45). Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual, (1Cor 15:46). Thus the first two chapters of Genesis are not so much a chronological order but rather need to be meshed together. The first man is of the earth, earthy: (Gen 2:7, 1Cor 15:47) the second man is of the heavens (Genesis 1:26-28, Psalms 8:4-8, 1 Corinthians 15:27-47, Hebrews 2:6-9).
Okay so you're speaking of the resurrection...and yes I believe for any honest reader they would know that Genesis 2 chronologically would fit into Day 6 of creation as it is giving more detail into Adam's creation.

As I think I may have said to you before: one would need to be able to see the days of creation in Gen 1 also as thousand-year great days to be able to see this. In this view the luminaries may not be what you might think they are.
This is not true because there are some people who can see the resurrection of the body and prophecies of Christ in Moses and the Prophets without needing to know the chronology first, or even the prefiguration of the creation week speaking of a 7,000 Year period which God has set for the world.

No biggie, right? Your chronology of the world would only be off by about 6000 years, (plus that approximately 1500 years you omit between the first century and now).
: )
I'm not sure I'm following your math here...I've stated in my own separate works on the is site that the 7 Days of the Week = 1,000 Years each for a total of 7,000 Years. As for the period which I omit from the chronology--for which I give my appropriate reasoning elsewhere--it is the period known as the Middle Ages which is ~1,000 Year period; and I add onto the fact that ~500+ Years more of phantom were added onto the timeline.

Of course this is difficult for most people to understand who don't know the difference between the Anno Mundi and Anno Domini timelines or how the 7,000 Year timeline relates.

For those interested in what I'm discussing can view some clear illustrations and beginner friendly videos which will help guide you through what I have said about the Middle Ages:

Anatoly Fomenko: Phantom Time
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,149
7,245
✟509,998.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Modern science works hard on its denial of God's existence no matter where is blooms.
Thus the whole 'flat earth theory'.

At this CF many (most) bow at the alter of modern science, and the alter here is huge. If you make a statement against science or NASA it usually gets put in the Conspiracy Theories. Or it will be ignored, as in the case here by @Humble Penny. Furthermore, you don't need atheists to attack you if you say something against science, cause you have plenty of Christians who will do it for them (usually with ungodly mocking). At times it seems like there is more "fellowship" that goes on with atheists about science at CF than anything else. Maranatha.
Yes all true. But just remember Iron sharpens Iron.
While there's definitley truth in science and mathematics...there's much more falsehood surrounding it.
I hate to butt in on your conversation with daq, a most knowledgeable man, I do have some questions.
To me science is about discovery of how things are or work or came to be. That makes it theoretical, as we can see by many scientific 'discoveries' that were later proved wrong.
But I've always viewed math as finite meaning it doesn't change, which is why a cliche is 1+1=2, it can't be 3 or any other number, only,2.
I can see your statement regarding science but having trouble reconciling it with Mathematics. I also believe that science is man trying to understand his universe while mathematics is what made it (by God of course).

The Pythagoras Theorem is practically fundamental to geometry. Whether he was a pagan or not isn't relevant to that.
I agree, as it is finite. But something like that is more of a discovery is it not?

1 Cubit = 6 Hand Breadths
1 Cubit = 18 Inches = 1 Foot 6 Inches
1 Handbreadth = 3 Inches


Diameter = 10 Cubits x 18 Inches
Diameter = 180 Inches / 12 Inches
Diameter = 15 Feet from brim to brim


Circumference = 30 Cubits x 18 Inches
Circumference = 540 Inches / 12 Inches
Circumference = 45 Feet around


540 Inches / 3 Inches = 180 Inches
540 Inches / 180 Inches = 3 Inches


45 Feet / 15 Feet = 3 Feet

...therefore...

PI = 3 according to the Bible.
I'm trying to understand where you got a handbreadth is 3"? I've measure my handbreadth and it's about 4" not including the area of the thumb. According to Merriam Webster it could be from 2 1/2" to 4" which is a big difference. And this wasn't even recorded in usage until the 14th century.
Biblical definition is : a measure of four fingers, equal to about four inches
So are you using a midpoint between the differences?

Even Paul said that it wasn't a sin to eat food that was known to be sacrificed to idols if one bought it in the marketplace: he only encouraged those stronger in the faith to not eat those foods in front of new converts just recently leaving paganism and idolatry.
Yet, James decreed that they weren't to eat meat sacrificed to idols and Yeshua later backed him up when speaking after both James and Paul were dead.


James – Acts 15:29 and 21:25

Paul – 1 Co 8:1

Yeshua – Rev 2:14 and 2:20

So who are you going to believe on this subject?
Do you eat meat sacrificed to idols?
If you eat any meat slaughtered halal you do.
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,149
7,245
✟509,998.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
The hours of the day change quite a bit in length throughout the year because the day is divided into twelve hours no matter how much daylight there may actually be in each day of the year. Your math may look as though it works well on a clock or a modern timepiece but in reality it only works two days out of the year: vernal and autumnal equilux, the two days of actual equal day and equal night, (which are not the same as the vernal and autumnal equinoxes).
Yes and Yeshua said there were 12 hours in a day but that leaves 12 hours for the night. Time back then wasn't mechanized. It was divided by what you literally had. So when you had sunlight from say the six o'clock *using our time counting - to six in the evening you would have 12 hours. But if you only had sunlight from 6 until 5 it would still be 12 hours but they would be shorter

12 hours / 12 = 12 hours
12 hours / 11 = 1.09 for each hour
So your hours are longer but together they make 12 hours for the day

Yes and the equilux will also depend on where you are, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: daq
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,149
7,245
✟509,998.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well I see the circle differently than you do because while I do believe in a 364 Day Solar Year I do see that the solstices and equinoxes are what give us the four extra days at the end of the year since those are the four times the sun changes it's position in the sky. That said just like you see in the four quarters of the circle and square these represent the four seasons points at the far end of the X-axis and the Y-axis: which means that make up the same 360° Degrees of the circle and square without causing the number of degrees to increase as they act as dividers of the year.

For these reasons you wouldn't reckon these four seasonal days until the end of the year.
And that might be why on the biblical calendar, concerning the moedim the appointed dates with our Creator, they only include seven months and those seven months start when He says they start, this I believe keeps his calendar in order. He determines this by two things, (two witnesses) and those are the heavens and the earth.

  1. The Heavens - because it needs to be a new moon (not a dark moon but the first sliver)
  2. The Earth - by the growing of the barley at a certain stage.

Aviv, the first month means 'green ear' and speaks of the barley which is needed for the very first fruits to be ripened.
Just like the Father determines when Yeshua Ha Moschiah returns, he determined when he came the first time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Thus the whole 'flat earth theory'.


Yes all true. But just remember Iron sharpens Iron.

I hate to butt in on your conversation with daq, a most knowledgeable man, I do have some questions.
To me science is about discovery of how things are or work or came to be. That makes it theoretical, as we can see by many scientific 'discoveries' that were later proved wrong.
But I've always viewed math as finite meaning it doesn't change, which is why a cliche is 1+1=2, it can't be 3 or any other number, only,2.
I can see your statement regarding science but having trouble reconciling it with Mathematics. I also believe that science is man trying to understand his universe while mathematics is what made it (by God of course).

I agree, as it is finite. But something like that is more of a discovery is it not?
[...]
I'm a bit tired but I will briefly respond to this part of your comment. What I'm addressing here and helping people to do for themselves is not to focus on the structure but to look at its foundations because if the foundation is weak then it's only a matter of time before the entire building collapses.

That said there's a common misconception on the subject of science and mathematics:

Science from the Latin scientia "knowledge, to know".

Mathematics from the Greek Mathematike "The art of learning" from mathema "to learn" + tekne "skill, art"

So then with the etymology of these two words it is clear that they have less to do with dry quantities of numbers, and more to do with knowledge and how we learned to acquire such knowledge in the first place. And as our second Greek word suggests learning itself is an acquired skill. Therefore the numbers and words we use are merely symbols and characters to represent the thoughts in our minds, and as anyone can see there are numerous ways we use the same symbols to talk about and express the same or different things.

Of course there is order to all of this and it's not completely random and made up. That said while it might seem to the casual observer that numbers and words don't change, well they do change based on our perspective of them. Take the words evidence and interpret for example:

Evidence from the Latin evidentia "perceptible, clear, apparent" from ex- "out of, fully, out" + videre "to see"

Interpret from the Latin interpretari "explain between".

Thus our conclusions will vary depending on how we're able to "explain" [interpret] what we're able "to see" [evidence].

Sadly we've been so indoctrinated in our institutions that very few of us know how to think creatively and independently. So it's not a suprise then when it comes to the realm of science and mathematics that we treat them as some type of unquestionable "gods" who never ever err and they just provide all the answers to everything...which is a completely false belief to have as God is the only One who Knows all things for He made all things. Thus it is important to interpret things according to the narrative He has provided in His Word, the Bible.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Yes and Yeshua said there were 12 hours in a day but that leaves 12 hours for the night. Time back then wasn't mechanized. It was divided by what you literally had. So when you had sunlight from say the six o'clock *using our time counting - to six in the evening you would have 12 hours. But if you only had sunlight from 6 until 5 it would still be 12 hours but they would be shorter

12 hours / 12 = 12 hours
12 hours / 11 = 1.09 for each hour
So your hours are longer but together they make 12 hours for the day

Yes and the equilux will also depend on where you are, right?

Yep, yep, and agree. And yes also, equilux will depend on where you are on the planet, (latitude).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lulav
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I agree, as it is finite. But something like that is more of a discovery is it not?

Yes again, and that's the very reason why whether or not Pythagoras was a pagan is irrelevant. We shouldn't toss out mathematical truths just because those who discovered them may have had religious beliefs we do not agree with.

In another example akin to what I previously said to Dani'el, the zero is credited as a Muslim/Arabic discovery: would that now make everyone who uses the zero in numbers and calculations a Muslim? (I'm not actually directing that question to you, just dropping some logic bombs : ) ).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟178,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Well people have been disagreement since the garden of Eden and there were only two people, but as the story of Adam and Eve teaches us our father and mother went astray when they each pursued their own ways and left the ways of God. My hope for this thread is to get people talking more and, thinking more about what the Bible has to say about all branches of knowledge versus what the world says.

I'm praying that we are moved to not lean on our own understanding and be led astray by not having our thoughts checked against, and rooted in the Word of God. But as you hinted "birds of a feather flock together" so can we really expect anything different to happen?


Okay so you're speaking of the resurrection...and yes I believe for any honest reader they would know that Genesis 2 chronologically would fit into Day 6 of creation as it is giving more detail into Adam's creation.


This is not true because there are some people who can see the resurrection of the body and prophecies of Christ in Moses and the Prophets without needing to know the chronology first, or even the prefiguration of the creation week speaking of a 7,000 Year period which God has set for the world.


I'm not sure I'm following your math here...I've stated in my own separate works on the is site that the 7 Days of the Week = 1,000 Years each for a total of 7,000 Years. As for the period which I omit from the chronology--for which I give my appropriate reasoning elsewhere--it is the period known as the Middle Ages which is ~1,000 Year period; and I add onto the fact that ~500+ Years more of phantom were added onto the timeline.

Of course this is difficult for most people to understand who don't know the difference between the Anno Mundi and Anno Domini timelines or how the 7,000 Year timeline relates.

For those interested in what I'm discussing can view some clear illustrations and beginner friendly videos which will help guide you through what I have said about the Middle Ages:

Anatoly Fomenko: Phantom Time

Genesis 2:4
4 These are the toldoth ha-shamayim and ha-aretz in their being created, in the yom [that the] LORD God made Eretz [no article] and Shamayim [no article]

Eretz and Shamayim, (without the article) were not both created in a single yom in the previous chapter, (which, imo, is still the same passage in the above text).

Shamayim is/are named by Elohim when it/they were created, in Yom Sheni:

Genesis 1:6-8 KJV
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven [Shamayim, no article]. And the evening and the morning were the second day [Yom Sheni].

Eretz is named by Elohim when it was created, in Yom Shelishi:

Genesis 1:9-13 KJV
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; [Eretz, no article] and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day [Yom Shelishi].

Thus, because of the statement in Genesis 2:4 quoted above herein, the yamim of creation in the first chapter of Genesis all occur in one yom: the yom wherein Elohim Almighty created Shamayim, Eretz, and all their host.

Right away, in the very beginning, yom has multiple meanings. This is because Yom is Light, just as Elohim says in Genesis 1:5 where He calls the Light, Yom. If therefore Yom is Light then yom, when it is used for an increment of time, can used for any increment of time. If therefore yom can be a day, then yom can surely also be used for an hour: for yom is not any particular increment of time, but is used in a general way for increments of time, for Yom is instead, Light. And this Light is the Light which Elohim Almighty called forth to shine out of the darkness, (Genesis 1:3). The Yom Light is therefore much more important than the greater light, the lesser light, and the stars which were themselves created in Yom Rebii.

So then, as has been said before, if you can say that the creation days represent thousand-year days, as you have now said again in this post, then you are engaging in a special pleading argument if you choose to ignore the fact that they can also be counted as thousand-year days right there in the text in the way they are written.

Moreover your commentary regarding Genesis 2:7 fitting only the sixth day is just your opinion. The context surrounding the first creation actually fits much better with the third day of creation. There was not yet any plant of the field in the earth, and there was not yet any herb of the field sprouted up, and immediately after the first man Adam is formed, and given the breath of life, and becomes a living soul, Elohim plants a garden. This fits the third day much better and this pattern shows up in the parables of the Master all over the place, (Matthew 13 is a good place to start looking for this pattern).

Just as Paul says, the first man Adam became a living soul, (and this is Genesis 2:7), and the second man is from the heavens, and the Psalmist agrees that this is Genesis 1:26-28. What is it then? From the very beginning, ha-adam was recreated in the image and likeness of Elohim, and only then is/are he/they named Adam, (and this also is provable by the Hebrew text and the usage of the definite article).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I hate to butt in on your conversation with daq, a most knowledgeable man, I do have some questions.
To me science is about discovery of how things are or work or came to be. That makes it theoretical, as we can see by many scientific 'discoveries' that were later proved wrong.
But I've always viewed math as finite meaning it doesn't change, which is why a cliche is 1+1=2, it can't be 3 or any other number, only,2.
I can see your statement regarding science but having trouble reconciling it with Mathematics. I also believe that science is man trying to understand his universe while mathematics is what made it (by God of course).
See post #35 for my response to this (if you haven't already)

I'm trying to understand where you got a handbreadth is 3"? I've measure my handbreadth and it's about 4" not including the area of the thumb. According to Merriam Webster it could be from 2 1/2" to 4" which is a big difference. And this wasn't even recorded in usage until the 14th century.
Biblical definition is : a measure of four fingers, equal to about four inches
So are you using a midpoint between the differences?
I thought the calculations I performed in post #11 made it clear that I came to the conclusion that 1 Handbreadth = 3 Inches since it is already established by the ancient biblical units of weights and measures that 1 Cubit = 18 Inches = 6 Handbreadths? 18 Inches / 6 Handbreadths = 3 Inches.

Yet, James decreed that they weren't to eat meat sacrificed to idols and Yeshua later backed him up when speaking after both James and Paul were dead.


James – Acts 15:29 and 21:25

Paul – 1 Co 8:1

Yeshua – Rev 2:14 and 2:20

So who are you going to believe on this subject?
Do you eat meat sacrificed to idols?
If you eat any meat slaughtered halal you do.
I think you're misunderstanding what I've said so let me quote the relevant part from Paul's letter to clear this up:

"If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. But if anyone says to you, 'This is meat sacrificed to idols,' do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;"
1 Corinthians 10:27‭-‬28 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)

It's clear that Paul--nor I--is promoting the eating of food sacrificed to idols, but instead he is making the point that if a new conert weak in the faith knows that food is used in the pagan sacrifices to false gods that it is not a sin to eat it, but for the sake of the new brother/sister we are to refrain from doing so in their presence. The context of this passage is simply discussing how to handle this situation when invited to eat at someone's home. And in the story of the Maccabees it's clearly different becuase the Jews were being forced by Antiochus Epiphanes to either be killed or eat pigs offered to Zeus inside the Temple of God: so in this case it would be wrong to eat the food becuase it is one of the unclean animals, and even if it were a clean animal it would still be forbidden since it's clear being done in honor of Zeus and contrary to God.

Yes and Yeshua said there were 12 hours in a day but that leaves 12 hours for the night. Time back then wasn't mechanized. It was divided by what you literally had. So when you had sunlight from say the six o'clock *using our time counting - to six in the evening you would have 12 hours. But if you only had sunlight from 6 until 5 it would still be 12 hours but they would be shorter

12 hours / 12 = 12 hours
12 hours / 11 = 1.09 for each hour
So your hours are longer but together they make 12 hours for the day
Not understanding your first computation sister, did you mean to write 24 Hours / 2 = 12 Hours? Because 12 Hours / 12 = 1 Hour not 12 Hours as you wrote. Or were you instead computing 12 Hours / 1 = 12 Hours? Otherwise while it's true that there are 12 Hours for the Night: they are counted as two separate periods of time...it would be the Babylonians and Egyptians who would be the first to combine both day and night into a single 24 Hour period: when I learned this I stopped counting 1 Day = 24 Hours of Light and Darkness and switched to 1 Day = 12 Hours of Light because God separated the light from the darkness, and only attributes morning and evening to the day.

And that might be why on the biblical calendar concerning the moedim, the appointed dates with our Creator they only include seven months and those seven months beginning starts when he says they start, this I believe keeps his calendar in order. He determines this by two things, (two witnesses) and those are the heavens and the earth.

The Heavens because it needs to be a new moon (not a dark moon but the first sliver)
The Earth by the growing of the barley at a certain stage.
Aviv, the first month means 'green ear' and speaks of the barley which is needed for the very first fruits to be ripened.
Just like the Father determines when Yeshua Ha Moschiah returns, he determined when he came the first time.
Not sure what point you're making with the first seven months of the year sister because the Bible discusses all twelve months of the year with no issue. As for the new moon comment you made I agree that it is correctly defined as the first sliver crescent, and although I don't follow a lunar calendar I will say that if what you say is true then how do you explain Genesis 1:14-19 where it's clear God created the moon full?
 
Upvote 0

Humble Penny

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
1,212
220
37
San Francisco
✟262,172.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
To all new and current readers of this thread while there's a ton to read and sort through I thought I should take this time to point back to my OP and make my stance clear:

God's Word is the standard of Truth and everything must submit itself to His Wisdom. Therefore if a pagan happens to speak truth then we can't deny it since it's in accord with God's Word. If they speak falsehood however then we must reject it because it goes against His Word.

While this might sound easy at first we don't have clear signs hanging on everything telling us what's true and what's false by simply looking at it. If this were so we wouldnt need investigators or forensic detectives.

That said I created this thread as a challenge for us to put our scientific and mathematical beliefs in the fire to see if they come out as gold or are burned up as rubble.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0