• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Does mass evangelism really work?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Well, thank God someone made mass evangelism work. But the strength of evangelism, like anything else, is as much in the follow-through as the delivery. I have found follow-up from crusades dismally lacking. If you guys did it right, then you should give lessons to the communities that don’t.

On behalf of the evangelist, especially the ones who organize crusades, the fault is not in their desire to see hundreds come to Christ, the problem is in doing it effectively and preserving those he reaches. Maybe he has done his job in simply preaching the Good News but if he organizes the crusade he needs to take the responsibility for following up. Most churches involved in these kinds of outreaches have absolutely no idea how to do mass evangelism follow-up—it is not their expertise.

Billy Graham is obviously the expert on this but, even then, I have found it tried and found wanting.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Billy Graham is obviously the expert on this but, even then, I have found it tried and found wanting.

Then I would ask the following -

Did you read the book as required?
Did you attend the pre-event workshops?
Did you sow the vision into your church members for the seven or eight months before, like they encourage you to?
Did your church pray for the event and for the lost?
Did your church actively participate in the follow up on the names the ministry sent you?
Did your church try any of the follow up events suggested in their training classes?

If you can honestly tell me you did all the above, then I would agree the crusade did not work for you.

If you didn't, then I have to say that it isn't the crusade not working for you, but you not working for the crusade.
 
Upvote 0

geetrue

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
2,375
451
Beach House
Visit site
✟96,276.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Mass crusades are likened to the man walking down a Florida beach one day. The tide had gone out and left the beach littered with thousands of starfish.

One man was walking along and picking them up one by one and tossing them as far out into the water as he could.

Another man saw what he was doing and came over,
"You can't save them all"

The man picked up another starfish in front of him and tossed it out into the ocean.

"No, but I can save that one"

Mass crusades are one on one ... you just have to be the one in the ministry team that ministers to the one that ansered the call.

Is God suppose to waste the beautiful invention of radio and television on Giligan's Island and I Love Lucy reruns or use this medium to bring glory to His name?

Billy Graham is on TBN every saturday around 5 or 6 pm here, check your local listings, with a crusade he had many years ago. Last saturday was 1983 in Sacremento, California.

Many people at that crusade have died by now. Only God knows how many stayed true to the end.

You can see the tired and the humble walking forth for his altar call.

Where are they now?

I bet God knows each and everyone. I bet only a small percentage forget that something important took place that day.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Mass crusades are likened to the man walking down a Florida beach one day. The tide had gone out and left the beach littered with thousands of starfish.

One man was walking along and picking them up one by one and tossing them as far out into the water as he could.

Another man saw what he was doing and came over,
"You can't save them all"

The man picked up another starfish in front of him and tossed it out into the ocean.

"No, but I can save that one"

*****

But what if the man, in trying to save some starfish kept crushing others underfoot? What is he accomplishing? There has to be a better way to save starfish.

Mass evangelism would be great if it weren't for the collateral damage.

Like I say, there is a better way.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then I would ask the following -

Did you read the book as required?
Did you attend the pre-event workshops?
Did you sow the vision into your church members for the seven or eight months before, like they encourage you to?
Did your church pray for the event and for the lost?
Did your church actively participate in the follow up on the names the ministry sent you?
Did your church try any of the follow up events suggested in their training classes?

If you can honestly tell me you did all the above, then I would agree the crusade did not work for you.

If you didn't, then I have to say that it isn't the crusade not working for you, but you not working for the crusade.

Will you be answering this?
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Will you be answering this?

Yes, we followed the script. Can’t speak for anyone else.


PS, For the record, when I think back, we have never had a member added to our church as a result of a mass crusade or even a local revival that I can recall, although the number of these events we have sponsored have numbered close to ±100.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, we followed the script. Can’t speak for anyone else.


PS, For the record, when I think back, we have never had a member added to our church as a result of a mass crusade or even a local revival that I can recall, although the number of these events we have sponsored have numbered close to ±100.

WOW! it went from:
It’s not the tools you use, it’s how you use/misuse them that make them dangerous. As an old veteran of more than a dozen citywide crusades (including four Graham Crusades), I can tell you that the way they are being done souls are harmed in the process (for all the reasons expressed in previous posts) no matter how exhilarating gathering a crowd may be.


In post 129 to plus or minus 100. That would mean you have sponsored 100 crusades in 40 years of ministry.

Wow almost 3 major crusades a year, every year for 40 years and you've seen NO results.

Yes, we followed the script. Can’t speak for anyone else.

Script? what script? What are you talking about? I didn't ask about a script - I asked:

Did you read the book as required?
Did you attend the pre-event workshops?
Did you sow the vision into your church members for the seven or eight months before, like they encourage you to?
Did your church pray for the event and for the lost?
Did your church actively participate in the follow up on the names the ministry sent you?
Did your church try any of the follow up events suggested in their training classes?

We supported and did the follow up on ONE Billy graham crusade and saw more 200 people get involved in churches, some in ours. And you are telling me you did the EXACT same thing at over 40 years and 100 different events, years and saw NOT ONE?

And it's the crusades that are not effective?



 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
WOW! it went from:


In post 129 to plus or minus 100. That would mean you have sponsored 100 crusades in 40 years of ministry.

Wow almost 3 major crusades a year, every year for 40 years and you've seen NO results.

Yes, we followed the script. Can’t speak for anyone else.

Script? what script? What are you talking about? I didn't ask about a script - I asked:

Did you read the book as required?
Did you attend the pre-event workshops?
Did you sow the vision into your church members for the seven or eight months before, like they encourage you to?
Did your church pray for the event and for the lost?
Did your church actively participate in the follow up on the names the ministry sent you?
Did your church try any of the follow up events suggested in their training classes?

We supported and did the follow up on ONE Billy graham crusade and saw more 200 people get involved in churches, some in ours. And you are telling me you did the EXACT same thing at over 40 years and 100 different events, years and saw NOT ONE?

And it's the crusades that are not effective?

Either you’re not paying or you’re trying to derail this thread.

Along with the dozen or so big citywide crusades I have been involved in, including four with Billy Graham Assoc., I have promoted 50 Christian concerts with nationally charting artists which often included an evangelistic appeal and, as a pastor, at least two local revivals with itinerant evangelists every year for 25 years of ministry in the AOG. That’s well over 100 evangelistic events I have participated in.

The “script” is the training I received, along with the manual and training sessions.

I’m not saying I doubt your 200 figure but, well, it sounds evang-elasitc to me. If you are not blowing smoke, you have learned a secret we never learned in retaining crusade conversions and maybe you should give lessons. You definitely have a gift.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

pdudgeon

Traditional Catholic
Site Supporter
In Memory Of
Aug 4, 2005
37,852
12,353
South East Virginia, US
✟493,233.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
You definitely have a gift.
and maybe some great expectations to go along with it!;)
reminds me of a quote by Thomas Edison...(hope i get this correct)
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't--you're right."
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
and maybe some great expectations to go along with it!;)
reminds me of a quote by Thomas Edison...(hope i get this correct)
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't--you're right."

Nice quote, only it ain’t true. I can think I am Albert Einstein all I want to but I will remain Jimbeaux. I can think all the hungry and naked are warmed and fed but they will still be hungry and naked unless I do more than think they are.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I’m not saying I doubt your 200 figure but, well, it sounds evang-elasitc to me. If you are not blowing smoke, you have learned a secret we never learned in retaining crusade conversions and maybe you should give lessons. You definitely have a gift.

I don't smoke, so I have nothing to blow.

Secret? No - just witnessing to people one on one, showing them the love and concern of God. I knew you'd call me on this, so I called the church and asked for the specific numbers, they broke down as follows:

Total cards received: 203
Total home visits over a two week period: 197
Total who are associated or referred to another church: 160
Total showing no interest in follow up: 172
Total people visiting on Super Sunday: 125
Total expressing interest in joining VCC: 28

So I have to ask you again - we did ONE crusade - followed up on 203 people, with 28 of them joining our church and 160 saying they were involved with another church, or we referred them to another church.

One crusade: That's the facts -

And you are telling me you did the EXACT same thing over 40 years and 100 different events, and saw NOT ONE?
 
Upvote 0

PostTribber

Regular Member
Jul 14, 2007
3,378
37
Woodland, CA
✟26,210.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." ...preaching (our labor) is still rewarded by God, but as it is written, "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." ...preaching (our labor) is still rewarded by God, but as it is written, "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." :thumbsup:

Good verse!

If you are doing the work of the ministry- your church naturally grows!
 
Upvote 0

Eila

Senior Veteran
Jan 19, 2007
2,473
166
Visit site
✟25,980.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Either you’re not paying or you’re trying to derail this thread.

Along with the dozen or so big citywide crusades I have been involved in, including four with Billy Graham Assoc., I have promoted 50 Christian concerts with nationally charting artists which often included an evangelistic appeal and, as a pastor, at least two local revivals with itinerant evangelists every year for 25 years of ministry in the AOG. That’s well over 100 evangelistic events I have participated in.


I'm not sure I understand how Christian concerts with known artists are mass crusades. Wouldn't those concerts be filled with Christians? An evangelistic appeal should be part of every meeting where non-Christians could be present. If that is what you are referring to by mass crusades then I would agree in the Western world friendship evangelism is likely more effective. But it is likely that the non-Christians in attendance at the meetings are there as a result of being invited by friends. Both types of evangelism are necessary. But if you are trying to get the most bang for your buck I would invest in mass crusades in the 10/40 window where the people in the crusade are more likely to have not heard of Christ rather than the Christ-rejectors in the Western world.

Maybe you should define what you mean by mass crusade. To me "mass crusade" means a large group assembled with a good percentage of people in attendance who are lost. The simple gospel is preached and miracles happen. What harm is there ever to demonstrate the living Christ and tell the good news?
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
****

And you are telling me you did the EXACT same thing over 40 years and 100 different events, and saw NOT ONE?

That’s exactly what I am telling you, Balance, your feigned incredulity notwithstanding. Let me repeat and rephrase it so you will understand it: my involvement in more than 100 church/mass-type evangelistic campaigns and I cannot recall a single convert who was added to a church as a result of them. You did get that, didn't you? Shocking isn’t it?

And that’s why I think your figures are just as bogus just as you are accusing mine of being. Only difference is, I have had 40 years of first-hand experience and more than just a single Billy Graham crusade to base my opinion on.

What has worked, and I can take you to dozens of believers to prove it, is people who have been brought into the fellowship of a church by relatives, friends or neighbors and who, as a result, have come to faith in Christ and become vital members of a body of believers.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure I understand how Christian concerts with known artists are mass crusades. Wouldn't those concerts be filled with Christians?
*****

Yep. And so are Christian evangelistic crusades in the U.S. It may be different overseas but here in the U.S. 90% of a crusade audience are church members, just like at a Christian concert.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
24,736
4,653
48
PA
✟219,641.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That’s exactly what I am telling you, Balance, your feigned incredulity notwithstanding. Let me repeat and rephrase it so you will understand it: my involvement in more than 100 church/mass-type evangelistic campaigns and I cannot recall a single convert who was added to a church as a result of them. You did get that, didn't you? Shocking isn’t it?

And that’s why I think your figures are just as bogus just as you are accusing mine of being. Only difference is, I have had 40 years of first-hand experience and more than just a single Billy Graham crusade to base my opinion on.

What has worked, and I can take you to dozens of believers to prove it, is people who have been brought into the fellowship of a church by relatives, friends or neighbors and who, as a result, have come to faith in Christ and become vital members of a body of believers.

I've been following this thread for a while now, so let me see if I understand.

Because you failed at 40 years of attempts at "mass evangelism", you blame the "system" and accuse anyone who claims to have had any success of fabricating "bogus" numbers? Because you and your commitees couldn't figure it out, that invalidates the whole she-bang?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps mass evangelism may not be your calling, but maybe it is Balance's, or someone else's?

This is what people mean by tearing others down. In order for you to make your point, you have to resort to calling Balance a liar. Wouldn't it be better to realize that we all have different callings, different strengths, rather than tear down something that is working for others?
 
Upvote 0

Eila

Senior Veteran
Jan 19, 2007
2,473
166
Visit site
✟25,980.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yep. And so are Christian evangelistic crusades in the U.S. It may be different overseas but here in the U.S. 90% of a crusade audience are church members, just like at a Christian concert.

~Jim


I am master of my unspoken words.

Yes, what is often called a "crusade" is often really a church meeting that is evangelistic in nature. I don't think you could call these church meetings "mass crusades".

Evangelism with Christ-rejectors is different than evangelism with those who have never heard the Gospel. Friendship/one-on-one is usually more effective with Christ rejectors, but I don't think you can divorce crusades from evangelism because they are not the most effective way to reach Christ rejectors. Each method has it's place and sometimes both methods working together are what is most effective. Evangelistic outreaches/mass crusades should never substitute for the necessity of believers to carry out the ministry of reconciliation.
 
Upvote 0

New_Wineskin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2004
11,145
652
Elizabethtown , PA , usa
✟13,854.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Are organized and promoted mass meetings the pattern of evangelism that is pictured in the NT? I know Jesus drew large crowds but they were not “organized and promoted”, they just happened because, well, Jesus is Jesus. And Pentecost was a large gathering but it was neither organized or promoted (at least by men) but was spontaneous in the Temple on a High Holy Day.

No where else in the NT do we find the Apostles organizing mass crusades to win the lost and we are discovering that there is a very small percentage of those who “make decisions for Christ” at these meetings that are really genuine, lasting, life-changing conversions. One figure I read this week (and I can’t locate where I found it online) was that the average retention rate of “first-time converts” at mass crusades was around 1%. Billy Graham only claimed, at best, less than 10%.



Here are some figures I have compiled …
· Charles E. Hackett, the division of home missions national director for the Assemblies of God in the U.S. said, “A soul at the altar does not generate much excitement in some circles because we realize approximately ninety-five out of every hundred will not become integrated into the church. In fact, most of them will not return for a second visit.”
· In his book Today’s Evangelism, Ernest C. Reisinger said of one outreach event, “It lasted eight days, and there were sixty-eight supposed conversions.” A month later, not one of the “converts” could be found.
· In 1991, organizers of a Salt Lake City concert encouraged follow-up. They said, “Less then 5 percent of those who respond to an altar call during a public crusade . . . are living a Christian life one year later.” In other words, more than 95 percent proved to be false converts.
· A pastor in Boulder, Colorado, sent a team to Russia in 1991 and obtained 2,500 decisions. The next year, the team found only thirty continuing in their faith. That’s a retention rate of 1.2 percent.
· In November 1970, a number of churches combined for a convention in Fort Worth, Texas, and secured 30,000 decisions. Six months later, the follow-up committee could only find thirty continuing in their faith.
· A mass crusade reported 18,000 decisions—yet, according to Church Growth magazine, 94 percent failed to become incorporated into a local church.
· In Sacramento, California, a combined crusade yielded more than 2,000 commitments. One church followed up on fifty-two of those decisions and couldn’t find one true convert.
· A leading U.S. denomination reported that during 1995 they secured 384,057 decisions but retained only 22,983 in fellowship. They couldn’t account for 361,074 supposed conversions. That’s a 6% retention rate (or, to put it another way, a 94 percent fall-away rate).
· In the March/April 1993 issue of American Horizon, the national director of home missions of a major U.S. denomination disclosed that in 1991, 11,500 churches had obtained 294,784 decisions for Christ. Unfortunately, they could find only 14,337 in fellowship. That means that despite the usual intense follow-up, they couldn’t account for approximately 280,000 of their “converts.”
As a pastor, I gave up on these methods a long time ago for the very reasons expressed above—they just didn’t work the way they appeared to work (superficially).

Makes me wonder if we are doing evangelism right? Do mass rallies really accomplish what we imagine they do and, most importantly,

Are we doing evangelism the right way, the biblical way?

~Jim



People with nothing to hide hide nothing.

I would not doubt that those doing the follow-ups incorprated their own doctrines as to their definition of "Christian" . And , in these instances , "going to church" is a requirement for salvation .

A lot of groups support these massive rallys to obtain greater numbers for their groups . The say that their focus is on the salvation of the people . But , if they don't go to their group afterwards , they were false conversions .
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
51,467
18,644
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,130,274.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That’s exactly what I am telling you, Balance, your feigned incredulity notwithstanding. Let me repeat and rephrase it so you will understand it: my involvement in more than 100 church/mass-type evangelistic campaigns and I cannot recall a single convert who was added to a church as a result of them. You did get that, didn't you? Shocking isn’t it?

And that’s why I think your figures are just as bogus just as you are accusing mine of being. Only difference is, I have had 40 years of first-hand experience and more than just a single Billy Graham crusade to base my opinion on.

You know Jim, of all the conversations we've had, and the disagreements on things, I've always tried, though not the most eloquent at it, to show you respect.

I have defended you to people, I have complimented you openly and privately.

Yes, I have even gone so far as to call you the three most negative people I know. But that was and still is my opinion.

But, I have NEVER - EVER - called your integrity into question. Nor have I ever disrespected you to the point of calling you a liar.




 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.