Does mass evangelism really work?

[JimfromOhio]

Mass Evangelism (i.e. Billy Graham Crusades) plants seed, not winning souls (even though they proclaim to be winning souls). I believed those who came forward were planted and on their way toward accepting the Holy Spirit's conviction to accept Christ.

Evangelism requires courtesy from each Christ's disciples and be Christ-like. Many have accepted Christ by watching Christians more than talking.The Best Evangelist is the Holy Spirit. We plant the seed and if we Christians are faithful in our "witnessing", the soil God has prepared will bear fruit. Apostle Paul described the growth process: "I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth" (1 Cor. 3:6-7).

 

[Svt4Him]

Mass Evangelism (i.e. Billy Graham Crusades) plants seed, not winning souls (even though they proclaim to be winning souls). I believed those who came forward were planted and on their way toward accepting the Holy Spirit's conviction to accept Christ.

I don't understand this. You say it plants seeds, but when fruit is born, it's because something else happened, or someone else planted a seed. How is that any different than any conversion? And if it's planting seeds, watering what's already there, or harvesting when it's ready, isn't that really all that we're asked to do?

 

[JimfromOhio]

I don't understand this. You say it plants seeds, but when fruit is born, it's because something else happened, or someone else planted a seed. How is that any different than any conversion? And if it's planting seeds, watering what's already there, or harvesting when it's ready, isn't that really all that we're asked to do?

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

We preach the Gospel while the Holy Spirit wins the souls.

 

[Always in His Presence]

We preach the Gospel while the Holy Spirit wins the souls.

Proverbs 11:29 He who troubles his own house will inherit the wind,
And the fool will be servant to the wise of heart.
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
And he who wins souls is wise.
31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth,
How much more the ungodly and the sinner.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Proverbs 11:29 He who troubles his own house will inherit the wind,
And the fool will be servant to the wise of heart.
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
And he who wins souls is wise.
31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth,
How much more the ungodly and the sinner.

That's in the Old Testament that explains the proverbs of how to live "right" as Provers 11:5 explains "The righteousness of the blameless makes a straight way for them, but the wicked are brought down by their own wickedness."

Not salvation.

In Salvation......God's Word through the Holy Spirit to expose sin and rebuke is the Holy Spirit's convicting work through His Word. In the New Testament, its the Holy Spirit who does all the convicting, NOT us. I would never take pride taking the Holy Spirit's place in convicting people from their sins.

 

[JeCrois]

I've been following this thread for a while now, so let me see if I understand.

Because you failed at 40 years of attempts at "mass evangelism", you blame the "system" and accuse anyone who claims to have had any success of fabricating "bogus" numbers? Because you and your commitees couldn't figure it out, that invalidates the whole she-bang?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps mass evangelism may not be your calling, but maybe it is Balance's, or someone else's?

This is what people mean by tearing others down. In order for you to make your point, you have to resort to calling Balance a liar. Wouldn't it be better to realize that we all have different callings, different strengths, rather than tear down something that is working for others?

This is exactly what needed to be said. These are heavenly words, if I've ever seen them.

No one on here has drug anyone else's opinions through the mud by saying they are "bogus" and "nonwithstanding" except the one who is so sure he is right. What does this say about him? What does this make other people think?

I can see where a person may put more value into their own opinion (I don't agree with it, but I can see it). But to outwardly tear down everyone else's opinion just because they are different---and not even in a bad way---is coherently wrong.

Whether this was intented or not, it is not Christ-like.

Wow....I am stricken with remorse. I don't exactly know what to say...

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Bottomline, “Disciple”, you are rude. Nice shot at a personal attack but, FYI, I wouldn’t trade what I am doing now for a dozen TV slots or headlining a hundred citywide crusades. I am doing and being what God has called me to do and be and I am very fulfilled and happy doing and being it, thankyaverymuch. It’s called contentment.

BTW, my ministry is “big and successful” (in God's economy) just, thankfully, not notorious. What would make you think it wasn’t?

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

Seriously, I don't believe you are "fulfilled & happy" or contented doing what you are doing. Why? Simply becos a person who is truly blessed, fulfilled and happy can't be so critical and cynical of others.

Over the years, you've only shown yourself to be very bitter & critical toward big successful ministries, calling them "notorious", "bogus" ministries filled with "false prophets" out to serve their own pockets.

If you say you are "happy" doing what God called you to do, then why are you spending so much time here tearing down and criticising other people's big and successful ministries.

Don't you think only the bitter and jealous have a need to put down others, whether they are right or wrong?

 

[JimB]

Seriously, I don't believe you are "fulfilled & happy" or contented doing what you are doing. Why? Simply becos a person who is truly blessed, fulfilled and happy can't be so critical and cynical of others.

Over the years, you've only shown yourself to be very bitter & critical toward big successful ministries, calling them "notorious", "bogus" ministries filled with "false prophets" out to serve their own pockets.

If you say you are "happy" doing what God called you to do, then why are you spending so much time here tearing down and criticising other people's big and successful ministries.

Don't you think only the bitter and jealous have a need to put down others, whether they are right or wrong?

see below

double post

 

[JimB]

Seriously, I don't believe you are "fulfilled & happy" or contented doing what you are doing. Why? Simply becos a person who is truly blessed, fulfilled and happy can't be so critical and cynical of others.

Over the years, you've only shown yourself to be very bitter & critical toward big successful ministries, calling them "notorious", "bogus" ministries filled with "false prophets" out to serve their own pockets.

If you say you are "happy" doing what God called you to do, then why are you spending so much time here tearing down and criticising other people's big and successful ministries.

Don't you think only the bitter and jealous have a need to put down others, whether they are right or wrong?

Criticial? Cynical?

You are not being critical and cynical are you, D? Aren’t you ‘putting me down’? Or is it different when you do it? Has the mote grown so huge in your eye that you can’t see how foolish and self-revealing your post looks?

What I truly think (since we are feeling so free to analyze one another) is that I am touching a nerve in you, "Disciple", and you are afraid I could be right and that would mean that you are (gasp! shudder!) wrong and, if that is the case, the house of cards you have spent your Christian life building is coming down. My guess is (since we are feeling free to point out each others flaws), you probably see yourself in some juvenile wild imagination as a big TV preacher someday, traveling the evangelistic circuit converting the lost and healing the sick and raising the dead and being famous and having influence and you just hate it that, when that unlikely day comes, there are people out here who will not admire you and will hold your feet to the fire and make you, if not accountable, at least visible.

I hope you will crucify that pipe-dream before it crucifies you.

I may have it wrong, Disciple, but I don’t think so. I’ve been around a long time and have dealt with false ambition in many wannabe “international ministries” for decades and you are typical.

Did I peg you, D? Of course, ambitious people will not admit their own craven ambition, so I am not expecting a confession. But since you feel so free to want to tell me what you think of me, I thought I would let you know my impression of you (and a few others in this forum).

Actually, “Disciple”, I am very happy and fulfilled with or without your approval. What I am not is gullible—at least not any more.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[JimB]

I don't understand this. You say it plants seeds, but when fruit is born, it's because something else happened, or someone else planted a seed. How is that any different than any conversion? And if it's planting seeds, watering what's already there, or harvesting when it's ready, isn't that really all that we're asked to do?

You are correctamente, S4. (IMO, of course)

All we can do is plant or water and maybe, if God allows, have the privilege of being around when the harvest comes in and someone says, “What must I do to be saved?” But it is God every step of the way—it is God who gives the increase—not our man-made outreaches or revivals or crusades or televangelism or internet witnessing or evangelism seminars or any great idea we can come up with.

Just being salt and light is enough—it’s easy and inexpensive and effective and it works. Only, it’s not ‘creative’ enough for most of us.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[JimB]

I've been following this thread for a while now, so let me see if I understand.

Because you failed at 40 years of attempts at "mass evangelism", you blame the "system" and accuse anyone who claims to have had any success of fabricating "bogus" numbers? Because you and your commitees couldn't figure it out, that invalidates the whole she-bang?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps mass evangelism may not be your calling, but maybe it is Balance's, or someone else's?

This is what people mean by tearing others down. In order for you to make your point, you have to resort to calling Balance a liar. Wouldn't it be better to realize that we all have different callings, different strengths, rather than tear down something that is working for others?

You know, Pete, if you interpret the Bible like you interpret this thread, it explains a lot.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[JimB]

I would not doubt that those doing the follow-ups incorprated their own doctrines as to their definition of "Christian" . And , in these instances , "going to church" is a requirement for salvation .

A lot of groups support these massive rallys to obtain greater numbers for their groups . The say that their focus is on the salvation of the people . But , if they don't go to their group afterwards , they were false conversions .

I think there is a lot of truth in this, NW. We too often approach Christianity for what we will personally get out of it.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[JimB]

You know Jim, of all the conversations we've had, and the disagreements on things, I've always tried, though not the most eloquent at it, to show you respect.

I have defended you to people, I have complimented you openly and privately.

Yes, I have even gone so far as to call you the three most negative people I know. But that was and still is my opinion.

But, I have NEVER - EVER - called your integrity into question. Nor have I ever disrespected you to the point of calling you a liar.

This is not how I see it, B. Don’t be overly sensitive. If you think you are “showing respect” by saying (in a public forum) that I am a liar about the results of 40 frustrating and relatively fruitless years of experience in organized evangelism, then I am not real sure how you define “respect”or “integrity”. You may want to look in an English dictionary so that we can agree on our terms. May I recommend Dictionary.com.

I really like you, Balance, you have shown me a lot. I do not like your abrasive style of debate and I do not like some of the “respectful” stuff you dish out to me. And, frankly, I am appalled at your feigned offense. I know you are not this thin-skinned. We have sparred for a long time.

Actually, for the record, I like you, B. I repeat, I LIKE YOU—a lot!—but I am not going to take what you dish up from time to time to me and especially to others who disagree with you. I will speak to you in the language you dictate.

If I truly thought I hurt your feelings, I would apologize.

And, yes, I think the figures you quoted are bogus. Whoever complied them may want to go through them again. Either that, or you are living in a more gospel fertile area than our own Bible Belt region of the U.S. Our figures tell us something quite different.

BTW, if "negative" is what I am, then I have to say "polyanna" is what you are ... and pollyanna does not mean positve, B.

Now, if we can get past the feigned hurt feelings and personal insults I would like to return to the OP.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[probinson]

You know, Pete, if you interpret the Bible like you interpret this thread, it explains a lot.

Jim, Jim, Jim....

If your point isn't that, based on 40-years of your failures that mass-evangelism doesn't work at all, and you believe this simply because you couldn't figure out how to make it work, what is your point?

Do you have one?

I mean, I know it's easier to make snide, off the cuff remarks like this than it is to actually discuss the topic, but wouldn't it be better to realize that while mass evangelism may not be your thing, it's apparently and obviously working quite well for others.

 

[probinson]

Now, if we can get past the feigned hurt feelings and personal insults I would like to return to the OP.

What I truly think (since we are feeling so free to analyze one another) is that I am touching a nerve in you, "Disciple", and you are afraid I could be right and that would mean that you are (gasp! shudder!) wrong and, if that is the case, the house of cards you have spent your Christian life building is coming down. My guess is (since we are feeling free to point out each others flaws), you probably see yourself in some juvenile wild imagination as a big TV preacher someday, traveling the evangelistic circuit converting the lost and healing the sick and raising the dead and being famous and having influence and you just hate it that, when that unlikely day comes, there are people out here who will not admire you and will hold your feet to the fire and make you, if not accountable, at least visible.

This is not the OP. It's just a stab at Disciple that only confirms your heart to anyone that can read.

So I'm curious... Is it OK for you to make personal insults and asinine statements like this, and wander miles off topic, just so you can get a few good punches in, or does the "personal insults" remark apply to you as well?

 

[JimB]

This is not the OP. It's just a stab at Disciple that only confirms your heart to anyone that can read.

So I'm curious... Is it OK for you to make personal insults and asinine statements like this, and wander miles off topic, just so you can get a few good punches in, or does the "personal insults" remark apply to you as well?

And that’s your personal judgment, Pete. You know it isn’t true. It’s just the usual bait-and-switch tactic that seeks to make these threads something they were not meant to be—bait the original poster and switch the subject by making it personal. Get the OP on the defense and avoid talking about something that might make us think outside our comfortable box.

Now I would like to get back to the OP and stop this juvenile “you-said-I-said” personal sparring.

I agree, let’s get back to the OP.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[JimB]

Jim, Jim, Jim....

If your point isn't that, based on 40-years of your failures that mass-evangelism doesn't work at all, and you believe this simply because you couldn't figure out how to make it work, what is your point?

Do you have one?

I mean, I know it's easier to make snide, off the cuff remarks like this than it is to actually discuss the topic, but wouldn't it be better to realize that while mass evangelism may not be your thing, it's apparently and obviously working quite well for others.

These are not “my failures”, Pete, they are the failures of a man-created agenda for evangelism, in this case mass crusades. Yes, they have been disappointing to me because I have, like thousands of others, expended a lot of energy and prayer for their success only to have to admit that something that is as superficially “successful” as gathering crowds into huge arenas and football stadiums just does not work in the long run as we hoped they would—we are just not retaining the fish we pull into the boat.

I am not saying we should not launch these big crusades as much as I am offering that we do a better job of retaining what we catch. Any good fisherman would want to do that. What good is pulling it a net- full of fish if we just allow them to die on the deck? Until we find out how to preserve our catch it is better to expend our energies in more productive ways.

And as I have said over and over again (in case you have missed it), there is a better way—the NT way: sow and water seed, let our light shine, be the salt of the earth and ready at all times to give anyone who asks us a reason for the hope that is in us. It’s worked for two thousand years and it will work today, in our age of mass evangelism. It works for us.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

If you think you are “showing respect” by saying (in a public forum) that I am a liar about the results of 40 frustrating and relatively fruitless years of experience in organized evangelism, then I am not real sure how you define “respect”or “integrity”.

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm incredulous because I can't fathom a pastor spending 40 years of time, money and effort doing the same thing over 100 times and never getting any results. It doesn't make sense to me to continue spending time, money and prayer for 4 decades on something that didn't work.

I mean we spent literally 7 months and hundreds if not thousands of dollars preparing for the follow up. Weekly team meetings, prayer, flyer's, posters, hats, team t-shirts, elders promoting is at home cell groups. Combine that with 20 teams of two going out and personally meeting every one, some having to go back three and four times before they met.

I can't picture doing all that a second time, let alone 100 times, if we got no results, how would you get people to do it?

I'm not calling you a liar, I just can't fathom 10 years of no fruit and still sowing into ground that doesn't produce, let alone 40.

 

[Tamara224]

Jim, Jim, Jim....

If your point isn't that, based on 40-years of your failures that mass-evangelism doesn't work at all, and you believe this simply because you couldn't figure out how to make it work, what is your point?

Do you have one?

I mean, I know it's easier to make snide, off the cuff remarks like this than it is to actually discuss the topic, but wouldn't it be better to realize that while mass evangelism may not be your thing, it's apparently and obviously working quite well for others.

Pete, Pete, Pete,

The condescending tone belies your supposed purpose.

You guys (Balance, Pete, Disciple) need to get off your high horses. Jim hasn't done anything but respond to you all's tones. His testimony has been called into question but when he does the same thing, you all pretend like you've gotten your feelings hurt or like you're so much better than he is.

You can dish it but you can't take it.

BTW, mass evangelism is not "apparently and obviously" (despite that redundancy) working for some people.

 

[JeCrois]

Now I would like to get back to the OP and stop this juvenile “you-said-I-said” personal sparring.


~Jim

Oh...we were doing just fine discussing the original topic until no one but you made things very personal:

If I truly thought I hurt your feelings, I would apologize.

And, yes, I think the figures you quoted are bogus.

BTW, if "negative" is what I am, then I have to say "polyanna" is what you are ... and pollyanna does not mean positve, B.



~Jim

​

You know, Pete, if you interpret the Bible like you interpret this thread, it explains a lot.

~Jim

​

What I truly think (since we are feeling so free to analyze one another) is that I am touching a nerve in you, "Disciple", and you are afraid I could be right and that would mean that you are (gasp! shudder!) wrong and, if that is the case, the house of cards you have spent your Christian life building is coming down. My guess is (since we are feeling free to point out each others flaws), you probably see yourself in some juvenile wild imagination as a big TV preacher someday, traveling the evangelistic circuit converting the lost and healing the sick and raising the dead and being famous and having influence and you just hate it that, when that unlikely day comes, there are people out here who will not admire you and will hold your feet to the fire and make you, if not accountable, at least visible.

I hope you will crucify that pipe-dream before it crucifies you.


Did I peg you, D? Of course, ambitious people will not admit their own craven ambition, so I am not expecting a confession. But since you feel so free to want to tell me what you think of me, I thought I would let you know my impression of you (and a few others in this forum).

~Jim

​

That’s exactly what I am telling you, Balance, your feigned incredulity notwithstanding.

And that’s why I think your figures are just as bogus just as you are accusing mine of being.


~Jim

​

How can we openly talk about the OP and voice our opinions if you're going to come along and chastise us for disagreeing with you? You asked a question and people gave you answers from their own personal experience. But because they differ from what you want to hear they are bogus? Nonwithstanding? We are stupid because of how we interpret this thread?

Things were civil until you abandoned that by dragging everyone else through the mud.

I know you think you are right, so I don't know if pointing all of this out to you will change anything. You need to stop and think how you are glorifying God when you say things that derail another person's veracity.