Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

[cvanwey]

If so, demonstrate why Jesus was not actually Lucifer in disguise. Along with 'original sin', demonstrate that the Devil did not simply orchestrate yet another point of deception, by getting millions/billions to break the very top commandments, (by worshiping a false god).

It would appear the Devil has the ability to change form. It would appear the Devil has the ability to tempt humans. It would also appear the Devil has special powers, as the Devil appears able to tempt more than one individual at a time - (omnipresence).

If one states that God places limits on the Devil's capabilities, this would appear to negate the 'free will' argument.

So, does the Devil have the ability to impersonate God? If so, then please explain above.

If no, then doesn't this contradict the concept of free will? Which might then beg further questions... Such as, if God places limits to Satan, then why does God allow what God does allow Satan to perform, which causes many to reside in hell?

The point of this thread is to essentially turn the tables a bit... Shake things up, if you will.... Meaning, the skeptic is shifting the burden of proof the other way. The skeptic makes the assertion, and it is now up to the theist to 'disprove' the assertion.

This should be fun

 

[Steve Petersen]

If so, demonstrate why Jesus was not actually Lucifer in disguise. Along with 'original sin', demonstrate that the Devil did not simply orchestrate yet another point of deception, by getting millions/billions to break the very top commandments, (by worshiping a false god).

It would appear the Devil has the ability to change form. It would appear the Devil has the ability to tempt humans. It would also appear the Devil has special powers, as the Devil appears able to tempt more than one individual at a time - (omnipresence).

If one states that God places limits on the Devil's capabilities, this would appear to negate the 'free will' argument.

So, does the Devil have the ability to impersonate God? If so, then please explain above.

If no, then doesn't this contradict the concept of free will? Which might then beg further questions... Such as, if God places limits to Satan, then why does God allow what God does allow Satan to perform, which causes many to reside in hell?

The point of this thread is to essentially turn the tables a bit... Shake things up, if you will.... Meaning, the skeptic is shifting the burden of proof the other way. The skeptic makes the assertion, and it is now up to the theist to 'disprove' the assertion.

This should be fun

Prepare for a barrage of Bible proof-texts.

 

[HTacianas]

If so, demonstrate why Jesus was not actually Lucifer in disguise. Along with 'original sin', demonstrate that the Devil did not simply orchestrate yet another point of deception, by getting millions/billions to break the very top commandments, (by worshiping a false god).

It would appear the Devil has the ability to change form. It would appear the Devil has the ability to tempt humans. It would also appear the Devil has special powers, as the Devil appears able to tempt more than one individual at a time - (omnipresence).

If one states that God places limits on the Devil's capabilities, this would appear to negate the 'free will' argument.

So, does the Devil have the ability to impersonate God? If so, then please explain above.

If no, then doesn't this contradict the concept of free will? Which might then beg further questions... Such as, if God places limits to Satan, then why does God allow what God does allow Satan to perform, which causes many to reside in hell?

The point of this thread is to essentially turn the tables a bit... Shake things up, if you will.... Meaning, the skeptic is shifting the burden of proof the other way. The skeptic makes the assertion, and it is now up to the theist to 'disprove' the assertion.

This should be fun

I suppose that if Satan wanted to convince people to worship a false god he could simply have left them alone. One of the greatest obstacles of the early Church was the existing worship of pagan gods.

It's not as if Christianity created religion.

 

[cvanwey]

I suppose that if Satan wanted to convince people to worship a false god he could simply have left them alone. One of the greatest obstacles of the early Church was the existing worship of pagan gods.

It's not as if Christianity created religion.

True. But had Satan not carry out such an act, as representing a false god, almost 2 out of every 7 people would not profess to be some form of a Christian today. Much of Lucifer's dirty work is now done for him, in the sense that he now needs to spend far less time instigating single individuals, as they are already breaking the first commandment on a daily basis.

 

[Steve Petersen]

A better question for the OP is 'Does Satan exist?'

 

[childeye 2]

If so, demonstrate why Jesus was not actually Lucifer in disguise. Along with 'original sin', demonstrate that the Devil did not simply orchestrate yet another point of deception, by getting millions/billions to break the very top commandments, (by worshiping a false god).

What do you mean by a Free will? Do you mean a will that is free from ignorance of God or free from knowledge of God?

 

[cvanwey]

What do you mean by a Free will? Do you mean a will that is free from ignorance of God or free from knowledge of God?

Assuming Satan has the ability to make any choice he wishes, and assuming Satan does have the power to mimic others, does God restrict/govern/monitor/deny Satan's choices in any way? In other words, does Lucifer have full freedom to choose?

I'm fully aware that the term 'free will' means differing things to differing people

 

[childeye 2]

Assuming Satan has the ability to make any choice he wishes, and assuming Satan does have the power to mimic others, does God restrict/govern/monitor/deny Satan's choices in any way? In other words, does Lucifer have full freedom to choose?

I'm fully aware that the term 'free will' means differing things to differing people

I tend to believe that there are certain variables that differentiate the Creator from the creature, so that by circumstance of being created the creature is subject to vanity. Therefore it seems to me that Satan could not choose to not eventually become vain, and he would therefore imagine God through a false imagery wherein he projects his own vanity. When I read Satan's words in scripture, this seems to be the case. So I do not know how the term free will would be applicable in such a scenario.

 

[cvanwey]

I tend to believe that there are certain variables that differentiate the Creator from the creature, so that by circumstance of being created the creature is subject to vanity. Therefore it seems to me that Satan could not choose to not eventually become vain, and he would therefore imagine God through a false imagery wherein he projects his own vanity. When I read Satan's words in scripture, this seems to be the case. So I do not know how the term free will would be applicable in such a scenario.

No one knew what Jesus looked like before He was born. So how would anyone validate that Jesus was or wasn't the true Messiah? No one had pictures to reference. So your response does not make sense unfortunately. Satan simply presents as a human with supernatural powers, claims to be the messiah, and gets people to worship him. If Satan has free choice, God would not stop him. God also gives humans free choice to follow impostures, like God appears to give humans free choice now to follow other false impostures (Hinduism, Sikhism, etc...).

 

[Southernscotty]

As in Job Satan stated that he had been going to and from throughout the earth, However he had to receive permission from God to sift Job, So yes a measure of free will I would assume, as he is going about seeking to whom he may devour.
We know that he acts as an angel of light so he does possess a certain amount of God given ability and reign. Idk Just my two cents:

 

[childeye 2]

No one knew what Jesus looked like before He was born. So how would anyone validate that Jesus was or wasn't the true Messiah? No one had pictures to reference. So your response does not make sense unfortunately. Satan simply presents as a human with supernatural powers, claims to be the messiah, and gets people to worship him. If Satan has free choice, God would not stop him. God also gives humans free choice to follow impostures, like God appears to give humans free choice now to follow other false impostures (Hinduism, Sikhism, etc...).

I don't see how what I have said has anything to do with what Jesus looked like, since that would not preclude vanity from manifesting in the creature.

 

[cvanwey]

As in Job Satan stated that he had been going to and from throughout the earth, However he had to receive permission from God to sift Job, So yes a measure of free will I would assume, as he is going about seeking to whom he may devour.
We know that he acts as an angel of light so he does possess a certain amount of God given ability and reign. Idk Just my two cents:

Okay, cool. But this then begs other questions...

If Satan needs permission from God to enforce 'evil' acts, then doesn't this mean God is completely allowing countless other 'evil' acts, which apparently are inflicted by Satan specifically in one respect or another? Because quite frankly, I would assume that as soon as Satan is absent from the equation, there will exist no more sin....?

Which might mean God is approving each and every 'evil' act in which Satan does set into motion - (child rape, rape in general, genocide, murder, assault, kidnapping, etc etc etc....).

Such an answer would then set a stage for Satan's requirement to ask for permission prior to instigating any evil act towards humans. Otherwise, Satan could pull a fast one, and perform such acts without God's approval. Because quite frankly, Lucifer would be 'evil' enough to do so, because he is, after all, Satan

 

[cvanwey]

I don't see how what I have said has anything to do with what Jesus looked like, since that would not preclude vanity from manifesting in the creature.

Apparently, Satan can transform into a state in which humans might decide to worship, if deceived properly. And since no one knew what the Messiah actually looks like, there you go

2 Corinthians 11:14, NKJV. “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”

 

[childeye 2]

Apparently, Satan can transform into a state in which humans might decide to worship, if deceived properly. And since no one knew what the Messiah actually looks like, there you go

2 Corinthians 11:14, NKJV. “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”

Yeah, that's not what I was talking about. Nor do I understand the scripture of Satan being transformed into an angel of light as having to have anything to do with what the Messiah looked like.

 

[cvanwey]

Yeah, that's not what I was talking about. Nor do I understand the scripture of Satan being transformed into an angel of light as having to have anything to do with what the Messiah looked like.

In post #8, you stated 'imagine God through a false imagery wherein he projects his own vanity.'

My counterpoint, is that humans would have no clue what such a Messiah would actually look like. So even if Satan projected his own limited image, humans would not be the wiser, as they did not have a profile, or reference point, of what the Messiah would look actually like. Jesus took human form. That's it. Lucifer transformed into a human, of his limited choosing even, and has the ability to deceive and perform tricks.

 

[childeye 2]

In post #8, you stated 'imagine God through a false imagery wherein he projects his own vanity.'

My counterpoint, is that humans would have no clue what such a Messiah would actually look like. So even if Satan projected his own limited image, humans would not be the wiser, as they did not have a profile, or reference point, of what the Messiah would look actually like. Jesus took human form. That's it. Lucifer transformed into a human, of his limited choosing even, and has the ability to deceive and perform tricks.

In scripture, the false image of God projected through Satan's vanity was first presented to mankind when in the Garden of Eden, while the Christ was presented to mankind by God Himself.

Therefore the Christ is the True Image of God sent by God, and the Christ is in stark contrast to the image presented by Satan. Satan's imagery of god is vain and self serving, while the Image presented in the Christ is selfless to the point of suffering torture and death on a cross so that sinners could be saved. Whichever image a person believes in will define one's spiritual character. So it doesn't matter what the Messiah looked like in physical appearance, it only matters which one a person accepts as true.

 

[cvanwey]

In scripture, the false image of God projected through Satan's vanity was presented to mankind when in the Garden of Eden, while the Christ was presented to mankind by God Himself.

Therefore the Christ is the True Image of God sent by God, and the Christ is in stark contrast to the image presented by Satan. Satan's imagery of god is vain and self serving, while the Image presented in the Christ is selfless to the point of suffering torture and death on a cross so that sinners could be saved. Whichever image a person believes in will define one's spiritual character. So it doesn't matter what the Messiah looked like in physical appearance, it only matters which one a person accepts as true.

How would you possibly know what Lucifer's limitations might be? Sure, in the Bible, he possibly appears to have imitated a serpent in Genesis. However, as demonstrated in my prior response, indicating and eluding to (2 Corinthians 11:14) specifically, Satan also has the ability to impersonate righteousness

'13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness.'

 

[childeye 2]

How would you possibly know what Lucifer's limitations might be? Sure, in the Bible, he possibly appears to have imitated a serpent in Genesis. However, as demonstrated in my prior response, indicating and eluding to (2 Corinthians 11:14) specifically, Satan also has the ability to impersonate righteousness

'13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness.'

I know Satan's limitations precisely because I discern the blindness and intent of his own deception. To put it another way, the exposing of deception is already a proof of limitation.

Therefore the masquerade of righteousness by false apostles is postured in the semantics of a false image of god that is in stark contrast to the one sent by God. For example if one defines righteousness as a product of a man's free will, that is in stark contrast to defining righteousness as an attribute of God's Spirit.

 

[cvanwey]

I know Satan's limitations precisely because I discern the blindness and intent of his own deception. To put it another way, the exposing of deception is already a proof of limitation.

This response is in 'stark contrast' to 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

The rest of your response appears to be nothing more than a word salad, sorry.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Well, as per the Trilemma of Lewis: The Christ depicted in the Gospels is either God, a madman, or a devil. I think that is where Faith comes in. Jesus seemed to have resulted in far too much that my moral sense considers Good, for the other two options. But if you want to make such an argument, there are always ways and means to do so. The question is which one seems most plausible, on which hill you choose to die. I chose to die on Golgotha, in expectation and hope of rising-in-Christ with the Carpenter crucified there.


Note: Yes, Lewis does qualify his trilemma as "as depicted in the Gospels".