does Jesus love us all?

[ashout]

IF Jesus loves us all, then some of us he loves lightly and only in the sense that he has love for his enemys. what is most important is that he hates the wicked, that is what they will remember about him(as if they remember anything in hell).

 

[Hupomone10]

I think the Scriptures say that "God is love" for a reason. Maybe that's what He would like us to focus on. He is not primarily a God of hate, but a God of love. Do you know any verses that say "God is hate"? Do you know any verses that say that Jesus hated anyone?

What God hates is sin, not people created in His image who have indwelling sin. He hates that indwelling nature of the devil which we all have until crucified with Christ at salvation, but He doesn't hate the personality He created in His own image. That's why all references to His hating refer to the wicked, not to the non-elect. It is wickedness that God hates.

If I'm trying to share Christ with an unsaved person, I don't want this to be my message: "what is most important is that he (Jesus) hates the wicked.

Does what I'm saying make any sense? If it does, why have a thread talking about Jesus hating people. If it doesn't, then I think we're on such a different spiritual wavelength that any further fellowship might not be useful. But I hope that is not the case.

 

[WinBySurrender]

IF Jesus loves us all, then some of us he loves lightly and only in the sense that he has love for his enemys. what is most important is that he hates the wicked, that is what they will remember about him(as if they remember anything in hell).

I've repeated this so many times the last few days on this forum, I don't know if you've had a chance to read it or not, ash. God loves without partiality, and God hates without malice. What that means is that He can love an unrepentant sinner as part of His creation, bringing the rains and the sun and cool breezes as a blessing, while hating the man for his sin and the relationship-breaking effect that sin has with God. I don't think there is any differential of the level of love God feels for anyone, but being able to enjoy fellowship, relationship, receiving the full measure of His blessings and His love certainly makes the love He has for the sinner look like hate. But it's not. When God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated", God was not making a differentiation of emotion, but of His sovereignty.

Matthew Henry put it much better 300 years ago than I could put in 300 years of trying:

The difference was made between them by the divine counsel before they were born, or had done any good or evil. Both lay struggling alike in their mother’s womb, when it was said, "The elder shall serve the younger," without respect to good or bad works done or foreseen, "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" —that this great truth may be established, that God chooses some and refuses others as a free agent, by his own absolute and sovereign will, dispensing his favours or withholding them as he pleases. This difference that was put between Jacob and Esau he further illustrates by a quotation from Malachi 1:2, 3 , where it is said, not of Jacob and Esau the person, but the Edomites and Israelites their posterity, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." The people of Israel were taken into the covenant of peculiarity, had the land of Canaan given them, were blessed with the more signal appearances of God for them in special protections, supplies, and deliverances, while the Edomites were rejected, had no temple, altar, priests, nor prophets-no such particular care taken of them nor kindness shown to them.
​

 

[VCViking]

Do you know any verses that say that Jesus hated anyone?

God hates the sinner and God loves the sinner, because God is love, and just, and longsuffering and merciful. It's through His mercy that He also loves the sinner.

We as Christian are not to hate sinners but to love them. The phrase "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" (which I used in the past many times) can apply to the Christian but not God. St. Augustine first stated "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum," or 'With love for mankind and hatred of sins." Gandhi, a Hindu, then coined and made popular "hate the sin, love the sinner." Why people insist on using a phrase coined by a follower of demons and attribute it to God is beyond me. Not saying you are but just throwing that out there.



Here are just a few verses,

"thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Psalm 5:5

Psalm 11:5 “The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.”


Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION, A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." ( Refers to people, not sins)

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”


Commentaries

AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): “For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys.” (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)



JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): “But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them.” (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)



JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)



CHARLES G. FINNEY: “The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event- the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger.” (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)



F. DELITZSCH : “Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters... SUCH MEN JEHOVAH HATES: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love,” ... “And His soul HATES the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth.”(Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)



CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous...” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)



AUGUSTUSHOPKINS STRONG : “There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin.” (Systematic Theology, p.290f)



J.VERNON MCGEE: “If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy.” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)



LAYMAN’S BIBLE COMMENTARY: “God’s Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to HATE BOTH THE SINNER AND HIS SIN. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but there is truth here we dare not overlook.”



MATTHEW HENRY’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”



THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: “But the wicked HIS SOUL DOTH HATE... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and HE HATES THEM FROM HIS VERY SOUL. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and HATING His deadly enemies...”



THE INTERPRETER’S BIBLE: “In vs. 5 the verb ‘trieth’ has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means no more that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, HATING THE LATTER and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them.”



BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: “Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who HATES ALL ‘DOERS OF SIN.’ Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: HE DETESTS THE MAN OF BLOODY DEEDS AND DECEITS.”

 

[Raymond M]

God is a loving God, but I see him as a God of Righteousness then a God of Love. Of course God loves us. But I think the term "God of Righteousness" fits him a bit better.

My opinion though.

 

[twin1954]

God is love is not a definition of God. It isn't a description of God either. It is simply a statement of a part of His nature and character. God is spirit, God is truth, God is just and God is holy are also descriptions of parts of His nature and character. They are called His attributes in theological terms. If we desire to study the love of God as a part of the whole of His being that is fine but lets never make the mistake of thinking that it defines Him.

God's love is not just an emotion but a principle that drives His acts towards those He has set His love on. Love seeks the utmost good for its object and will do all that is in its power to accomplish that good. God's love is not only backed by His infinte power to do the objects of His love good but by His infinite wisdom that ensures that those He loves are blessed.

To say that God loves all men is to say that His love is not only pointless, just like ours, but powerless just like ours. It reduces the love of God to an empty emotion that is helpless to do anything. Those He loves He witholds nothing from. Rom. 8:31-39

 

[Hupomone10]

We are so far from agape love, which in fact can only be appropriated from God Himself, that we can only understand love in the "love because-of" sense.

I believe God loved the world, and yet despised it intensely due to sin. He despised it so intensely that He decided to do something about it. "For God so loved... that He (decided to) give His only begotten Son.

I can love the homosexual and yet despise his/her sin intensely. God can also. Many He has saved, and therefore loved all along, without partiality.

 

[Hupomone10]

God hates the sinner and God loves the sinner, because God is love, and just, and longsuffering and merciful. It's through His mercy that He also loves the sinner.

We as Christian are not to hate sinners but to love them.

We are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is. We are not to love in a way that He doesn't, but the way that He does. God is love, God loves the world. God intensely despises the world and has done something about it.

Here are just a few verses,

Maybe I wasn't clear. I know the Old Testament has verses that word it that way. Any New Testament verses particularly about Jesus hating? That's what the thread suggested.

 

[VCViking]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I know the Old Testament has verses that word it that way. Any New Testament verses particularly about Jesus hating? That's what the thread suggested.

There are but not as direct. Is Jesus not also God?



I think brother Cloud sums it up well,

“How can it be that God hates sinners and yet He also loves them? God is a very complicated Person. From our frail human perspective His love and His holiness can appear to be contradictory, yet this is only because of the limitations of our human experience and conceptions. God does hate sinners because of their rebellion and stubbornness and He does not hesitate to cosign sinners to eternal torment unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. At the same time God loves sinners se deeply that He gave His only begotten Son for their sake to save them from their sin.” - David Cloud

 

[Hupomone10]

Is Jesus not also God?

He isn't God the Father, nor does He ever say He is. When He was on earth He always referred to Himself as the Son of Man or Son of God. It is the teaching of the Son of Man here on earth I'm referring to.

There are but not as direct.

Please list the indirect ones for us, where Jesus hates people indirectly. However, I think you've answered the question regarding Jesus.

I think brother Cloud sums it up well,

“How can it be that God hates sinners and yet He also loves them? God is a very complicated Person. From our frail human perspective His love and His holiness can appear to be contradictory, yet this is only because of the limitations of our human experience and conceptions.

I somewhat agree with Cloud, however it is not the contrast between His holiness and His love that are in discussion here, but how God can love and hate the same individual at the same time. I do think it is complicated and that God means something by it that we do not totally understand. Because of that, if I tell the unsaved that God hates them, I think I will convey the same misunderstanding to them. That's probably why we don't find such statements in the New Testament passages explaining the gospel and how it relates to the sinner.

When it comes to wickedness it is agreed that God hates it. In separating the wickedness from the wicked, I agree it's almost impossible to do.

When it comes to the gospel, God so loved the world that He gave His Son that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. That's good enough for me, and I want that to be what I tell them.

There are obviously plenty of comments from commentators, ones I respect, to justify one's desire to talk about God's hatred of people, so...

Be happy.

Peace, (unless you're wicked)
H.

 

[twin1954]

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(Joh 3:36)
We make a great mistake and do great harm to the souls of men when we give them a reason to hope in the love of God apart from faith in Christ. Notice in the passage that John the Baptist doesn't say that the love of God abides on the unbeliever but the wrath of God. When we tell a sinner of the love of God we must always make sure it is understood that the love of God is on those who believe. The unbeliever cannot hope in the love of God as long as he remains an unbeliever. The Gospel message isn't that God loves all men but that God's love accomplished redemption for all who believe. We must make it clear and plain that faith in the finished work of Christ is the only hope of sinners.

 

[miamited]

hi twin,

re: post #6

I must say that I believe that is the best way I have ever heard God's love described, that I would be in complete agreement with.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[WinBySurrender]

I have a question for those of you who insist God only hates the sinner, and does not love him. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says,

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
​

Here's the question: If God commands us to love our enemies, is He going to hold Himself to a lower standard towards His enemies? As I said earlier in the thread, God loves without partiality, and hates without malice. He loves the sinner for being His creation, and hates the sinner for destroying relationship with his Creator. God can do both, simultaneously and perfectly. We can't. We also can't apply our capacity for love and hate to God, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)

 

[Hupomone10]

I have a question for those of you who insist God only hates the sinner, and does not love him. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says,

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
​

Here's the question: If God commands us to love our enemies, is He going to hold Himself to a lower standard towards His enemies? As I said earlier in the thread, God loves without partiality, and hates without malice. He loves the sinner for being His creation, and hates the sinner for destroying relationship with his Creator. God can do both, simultaneously and perfectly. We can't. We also can't apply our capacity for love and hate to God, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)

I am truly interested in the answers.

"God has a different love for the sinner than He does for the saint" may be true, and I believe it is, but that's still love, not hate.

 

[Hupomone10]

Psalm 5:5
Thou dost hate all who do iniquity.

"God's love for sinners is established beyond any doubt in Jesus' death on the cross. At the same time, the cross firmly establishes God's commitment to punish sin. In this psalm and in other similar expressions found in the Old Testament and the New Testament (Mal. 1:2,3; Rom. 9:13) such statements are to be understood in a judicial sense. Those who believe in God and turn to that which is right stand safe within the circle of God's love. Those who reject God and do evil stand outside that circle in the realm of judgment. God loves (accepts, forgives) the believing sinner; God hates (decisively rejects, is committed to punish) the sinner who will not believe or turn to the Lord."

- Baffling Bible Questions Answered. by Lawrence Richards, professor, author.

 

[VCViking]

I have a question for those of you who insist God only hates the sinner, and does not love him. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says,

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
​

Here's the question: If God commands us to love our enemies, is He going to hold Himself to a lower standard towards His enemies? As I said earlier in the thread, God loves without partiality, and hates without malice. He loves the sinner for being His creation, and hates the sinner for destroying relationship with his Creator. God can do both, simultaneously and perfectly. We can't. We also can't apply our capacity for love and hate to God, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)

Not quite sure if you are referring to me but my opening line was,

God hates the sinner and God loves the sinner, because God is love, and just, and longsuffering and merciful. It's through His mercy that He also loves the sinner.

A problem arises when we try to figure out the mind of God.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Not quite sure if you are referring to me but my opening line was,





A problem arises when we try to figure out the mind of God.

Yup, and since our posts agree, it was not you to whom I was referring. There appear to be a few who believe they can discern the mind of God.

 

[Hupomone10]

WinbySurrender, you should find this one particularly interesting brother,

Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Malachi 1:2-3

“There is yet another aspect of God’s attitude toward sinners that reflects His unfathomable mercy and matchless grace. He so loved the wicked, sinful world that He gave His only Son, Jesus, to die as an atonement for sin. “All we like sheep have gone astray, …but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him” (Isa. 53:6). This means that even though God opposes and hates the sinner as a co-worker with Satan and a tool of his malice, God’s love reaches out in compassion and grace to all sinners everywhere, seeking to deliver them from sin by the Atonement and the New Birth, and to adopt them as His children in the family of the redeemed.

“Here, then, we find to our amazement that while God hates and condemns the unrepentant, unconverted sinner, yet His heart reaches out to him in mercy and love – a holy love operating through the Cross, “that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26, NASB). In other words, God is able to love the one whom He hates; but His hatred is of the sinner in his sin, and his love is for the sinner who repents of his sin and puts his trust in Jesus. Why is this so? Because from the moment he sincerely turns from his wicked way and puts his trust in Jesus, he becomes united with Christ by faith – and the Father cannot hate His Son, or anyone who is a member of His body and a temple of His Spirit.”

- Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, by Gleason L. Archer

 

[WinBySurrender]

LOL! Does this technique really work on other believers? Anyway, different subject and it is and has always been a settled issue with me. Attempts at diversion will not work.

Settled how, exactly?

 

[Hupomone10]

Yup, and since our posts agree, it was not you to whom I was referring. There appear to be a few who believe they can discern the mind of God.