Does Jesus look to find fault with us?

[Aldebaran]

Something I noticed while looking through Revelation, especially near the beginning when Jesus addresses the seven churches. There seemed to be an emphasis upon faults of each church. This seems to run counter to the idea that God sees us as perfect because He sees us in his Son Jesus. However, Jesus being God emphasizes the faults he finds, even to the point of threatening to take away or remove entire churches.

From Chapter 2, the Church of Ephesus:
2I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles. 3Without growing weary, you have persevered and endured many things for the sake of My name.

4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love. 5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


The church of Pergumum:
14But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. 15In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.


The church of Thyatira:
20But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21Even though I have given her time to repent of her immorality, she is unwilling.

22Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.


Chapter 3
The church of Sardis:
I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. 3Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.


The church of Laodicea:
15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

Even though these are all churches that are comprised of people who have been rescued out of the world through the blood of Christ, it is Christ Himself who is still finding fault with these people. Why doesn't He still see them as being cleansed by his blood?

Thoughts?

 

[d taylor]

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​

Jesus has to find fault as believers will be judged at the judgment seat of The Messiah. Where this will be a judgment for the loss or gain of rewards, and a judgment can not have loss or gain with the person being judged and not finding fault or praise.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Something I noticed while looking through Revelation, especially near the beginning when Jesus addresses the seven churches. There seemed to be an emphasis upon faults of each church. This seems to run counter to the idea that God sees us as perfect because He sees us in his Son Jesus. However, Jesus being God emphasizes the faults he finds, even to the point of threatening to take away or remove entire churches.

From Chapter 2, the Church of Ephesus:
2I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles. 3Without growing weary, you have persevered and endured many things for the sake of My name.

4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love. 5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


The church of Pergumum:
14But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. 15In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.


The church of Thyatira:
20But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21Even though I have given her time to repent of her immorality, she is unwilling.

22Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.


Chapter 3
The church of Sardis:
I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. 3Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.


The church of Laodicea:
15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

Even though these are all churches that are comprised of people who have been rescued out of the world through the blood of Christ, it is Christ Himself who is still finding fault with these people. Why doesn't He still see them as being cleansed by his blood?

Thoughts?

This has always troubled me about the book of Revelation. It just doesn't sound like Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I suspect this is why it was so controversial , as it was not fully embraced until the 5th century.
" My seep hear My voice". I don't hear Him in this Book. My two cents and continue to come to understanding.
Blessings.

 

[Strong in Him]

Something I noticed while looking through Revelation, especially near the beginning when Jesus addresses the seven churches. There seemed to be an emphasis upon faults of each church.

Two of the churches have no faults listed.
Love doesn't mean agreeing with everything a person says/does for fear of upsetting them. Jesus also says to the church at Sardis, "those whom I love I rebuke and discipline."

It has been said that Jesus loves us just as we are - but he loves us too much to leave us that way.
That's why the Spirit is in us, transforming us in to Jesus' image, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

 

[Aldebaran]

Two of the churches have no faults listed.
Love doesn't mean agreeing with everything a person says/does for fear of upsetting them. Jesus also says to the church at Sardis, "those whom I love I rebuke and discipline."

It has been said that Jesus loves us just as we are - but he loves us too much to leave us that way.
That's why the Spirit is in us, transforming us in to Jesus' image, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

But if we are left that way, are we then considered to be "not abiding"?

 

[Strong in Him]

But if we are left that way, are we then considered to be "not abiding"?

I don't believe we will be left that way.
If someone really knows and accepts God's awesome love, I believe it will change them and they will want to be more like Jesus. There was certainly a big difference in my life between knowing, academically, that God loves me because he loves everyone, and he loves ME - because he chooses to, Ephesians 1:5-6.

If one of God's children wanders away, he will go after them to bring them back - maybe through discipline/rebuke, maybe through a real experience of his love. If they continue to wander away and show no signs of repenting and returning, I don't believe he will force them.
Jesus allowed disciples to walk away from him, John 6:66.

 

[Ceallaigh]

How is this any different from Jesus saying things like:

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

 

[Aldebaran]

How is this any different from Jesus saying things like:

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

In my opinion, it's not. It's another verse that makes me wonder. A branch is part of the vine. People who aren't believers don't become a branch unless they accept Christ's gift of redemption. If we don't remain in Him (some translations say "abide"), then we're supposedly cut off and thrown into the fire. It seems different than Romans 8:38-39 tells us.

 

[SamInNi]

This isn't fault-finding—it is God's holy and righteous response to sin and unbelief among His people. In His dealing with man, responses such as these have characterised God's nature from the beginning.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus said things to criticize and correct His disciples while He was on this earth. And He rebuked them for their unbelief when they did not believe Mary telling them that Jeaus had risen from the dead.

I have known people who seem to say God does not see us but He sees Jesus now if we are His children. And along with this, ones can say they do a lot of sinning and they will go to Heaven, no matter what they might do at the last moment before they die.

But Hebrews 12:4-14 talks about how our Father corrects us. He can't correct us if He doesn't see how we really are.

And yes He loves us by correcting us . . . so we are like Jesus in our character.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Firstly guys, why be unaware of vessels, one of wood is good for nothing, it has to be better than that.


2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.




God cant transform us constantly, we are given grace to believe in Jesus Christ rising from the dead, and if a person has no belief in this, they are not a vessel to be made unto honour.




Once you believe in righteousness, ( the righteousness of Jesus Christ rising from the dead ) you are a vessel meet for Gods own use, but it has to be very meet...


2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Something I noticed while looking through Revelation, especially near the beginning when Jesus addresses the seven churches. There seemed to be an emphasis upon faults of each church. This seems to run counter to the idea that God sees us as perfect because He sees us in his Son Jesus. However, Jesus being God emphasizes the faults he finds, even to the point of threatening to take away or remove entire churches.

From Chapter 2, the Church of Ephesus:
2I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles. 3Without growing weary, you have persevered and endured many things for the sake of My name.

4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love. 5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


The church of Pergumum:
14But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. 15In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.


The church of Thyatira:
20But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21Even though I have given her time to repent of her immorality, she is unwilling.

22Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.


Chapter 3
The church of Sardis:
I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. 3Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.


The church of Laodicea:
15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

Even though these are all churches that are comprised of people who have been rescued out of the world through the blood of Christ, it is Christ Himself who is still finding fault with these people. Why doesn't He still see them as being cleansed by his blood?

Thoughts?

In every church there are the believers, and those who aren't true in heart. The wheat and the tares are growing together in the same bodies.

Those who are tares are often spoken to in terms of get right with God, I hold this against you.

However, believers can fall into various traps - allowing heresies instead of standing strongly against it within our own churches etc.

Not all are salvation issues, but I believe making sure us and our churches are ready to stand before God without shame for what we have done is important... Hence the admonitions.

 

[Peacemaker1]

The good honest heart cant fall into the trap of the ones who fall away, or would be the same and no different.



Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

[Peacemaker1]

This forum does not like the words of Jesus Christ, who shows differences between right and wrong, it tries to confuse the simplicity and righteousness of what is testified to us, instead of go and be quiet, or go and live it instead of perverse disputations and debate of men.



Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[65James]

Jesus is just showing righteous judgment, John 7:24. As the Apostle Paul states in Romans 14:13; we are to judge when men put stumblingblocks in front of the pure faith of Christ. Jesus is inspecting the Fruit of the Spirit that the church has or is lacking, Matthew 7:15-20. And calling out mistakes that need to be corrected so they will not hear the terrifying words of Matthew 7:21-23.
Jesus never judges individuals for sins we struggle with, but when a church adds their own doctrine to His simplistic and pure salvation the Father‘s wrath we’ll be great because Jesus Christ is the only Way and the Heavenly Father‘s Hallmark Card. He care enough to send us the Very Best, Galatians 1:6-9.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Jesus never judges individuals for sins we struggle with, but when a church adds their own doctrine to His simplistic and pure salvation the Father‘s wrath we’ll be great because Jesus Christ is the only Way and the Heavenly Father‘s Hallmark Card. He care enough to send us the Very Best, Galatians 1:6-9.

Sin is unbelief, what is not of faith is sin.

When a person is in sin, ( unbelief in Jesus Christ) they also do not have the love of God in them, and all they do is lie, steal, covet, unholiness, no righteousness, no loving another as yourself, as all is for self. ( the love of God is the opposite to the unbelievers lies, it is to lay your life down for your friends.)

 

[Matt5]

Even though these are all churches that are comprised of people who have been rescued out of the world through the blood of Christ, it is Christ Himself who is still finding fault with these people. Why doesn't He still see them as being cleansed by his blood?

Thoughts?

I view "cleansed by his blood" differently than you do, apparently. I view it as more applying to humanity as a whole. He saved humanity, so the Father doesn't have to wipe out everybody. But each individual is still accountable.

The churches are in trouble shortly before the return of Jesus. That would be now. They will be punished. Matthew 25 in the parable of the talents explains:

The servant who is too lazy to avoid the harvests will be tossed into hell. The harvests are nuclear wars. It turns out that hell looks a lot like the effects of a fatal dose of radiation with unimaginable pain causing gnashing of the teeth and weeping. This continues for days before death comes.

The harvests apply to lands. The rich means rich lands - the West:

Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19;24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

The kingdom of heaven is established by Jesus on Earth upon his return.

 

[Peacemaker1]

if somebody is clean, of sin ( unbelief) hey do things through the faith of Jesus Christ, cleaned from interpretations, from deceiving, from trying to teach others, as we see how Jesus cleansed, it was through giving the Holy Spirit, which is the love of God, and all who talk clearly do not have the love of God ( all on forums) but all who love in deed love in truth.


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.