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does it make sense

maybenotcrazy

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To speak of creation categories in terms of overall form rather than just say due to small characteristics? What I'm getting at is: Is it reasonable to call organisms that are said to arise via parallel evolution to appear the same different just because they are said to have different lineages? Sometimes I wonder why we can't just call euphorbias and cacti different forms of the same thing rather than totally different plant families. I know this is stupid because they are more related "genetically" to their own assigned plant families but I'm just wondering, as a creationist, how we should classify. In the orchid family it just happens that flower type corresponds to plant form but not always. Oncidiinae has numerous plant forms especially among those with oncidium type flowers yet they are all of different genera (the tolumnias, vs.oncidium for example) yet there are plants with the same types of pseudobulbs and leaves (mostly with the exception of leaf count) that have different flowers that are in different genera than oncidium but look just like them as plants. What I'm getting at is what really should be a criterion of relatedness in plants for creationists, is it form, flowers root structure what? In the asclepiadae/apocynaceae there are so many different forms it just doesn't make sense to me that they are all the same just because they have the same flowers. But maybe I'm just CRAZY!!! Or am I just making an incoherent mess out of my question. I am a diehard creationist by the way. I almost vowed I'd never try to talk about science again but this was too tempting, lord rebuke thee satan!!!!
 
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NailsII

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Are you suggesting that a worm and a snake should be classified as the same family as they are physically similar?

What about a kangaroo and a rabbit?

The only way this would work is if you deny all the genetic evidence, which would basically throw the whole of classification into meaningless chaos.

The whole point of classification is of make sense of the living world, not to make it easy or visually appealing or spiriually comforting. the system as it is now allows for related organisms to be grouped according to species, phyla etc which are divisions of relatedness.

So I'm sorry, but I don't think it would work.
 
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maybenotcrazy

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Are you suggesting that a worm and a snake should be classified as the same family as they are physically similar?

What about a kangaroo and a rabbit?

The only way this would work is if you deny all the genetic evidence, which would basically throw the whole of classification into meaningless chaos.

The whole point of classification is of make sense of the living world, not to make it easy or visually appealing or spiriually comforting. the system as it is now allows for related organisms to be grouped according to species, phyla etc which are divisions of relatedness.

So I'm sorry, but I don't think it would work.

I was just bringing up an idea I have. You have a good answer. I like the current classification system. Why it works only the lord knows, actually I'll say it, he's very nice to us. We'd go crazy if he didn't make things so organizeable. Math wouldn't exist, physics would be incapable of answering questions etc. God gave us all the signs of organization that science has picked up on to be nice to us. We would be so mystified and never come up with any answers at all if he made it less beautiful than he has. Now, why atheists post on a christian forum? Alright I know it's like I was. I tried to disprove christian ideas and harass christians in my own day. Terrible. But at least you're civil! Bless you and may you come to know the truth somehow.
 
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Upisoft

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We'd go crazy if he didn't make things so organizeable. Math wouldn't exist, physics would be incapable of answering questions etc. God gave us all the signs of organization that science has picked up on to be nice to us. We would be so mystified and never come up with any answers at all if he made it less beautiful than he has.
I'm not sure why do you think that God gave us math, physics, etc.

Now, why atheists post on a christian forum?
Why not? People like to talk.
Christians do talk to me, therefore I feel free to talk to them.
 
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Hespera

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We already do use, informally, a system like you describe. The word "tree" is applied to very dissimilar plants, just on the basis of size.

When a person studies the anatomy of living things, their relationships become clear.

It doesnt really matter if you believe that they evolved, or were created in an instant, the pattern is still just as obvious. Id say that is the pattern to use.

Informally of course, "tree", "shrub" "annual", "flower" etc work just fine.
 
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maybenotcrazy

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I'm not sure why do you think that God gave us math, physics, etc.


Why not? People like to talk.
Christians do talk to me, therefore I feel free to talk to them.

God gave us the structure of the universe to allow math and physics. I fully believe he could have made everything so difficult to pattern we'd have no science or technology. HE'S REALLY NICE. It was hard for humanity to discover the laws of the universe but by God's mercy they did. I thank him for the little enlightenment I have from my useless biology degree as well as my relatively advanced understanding of mathematics. I'm not a math wiz but I did take high level college math. Sorry to brag. That's not my point. My point is I know enough to have an opinion and I think it is way too nice for a random universe to have given us techniques to understand it. That is all. I'm not a logical person though so if you don't like my way of thinking I'm sorry. Anyway it was not my point to get rid of atheists. I WAS an atheist. Perhaps by posting here you'll meet someone who will pray for you. I became a christian through a very difficult ordeal but no doubt someone prayed for me to do so and it was comfort of comfort. But that's enough about myself.
 
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Paulos23

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If there was a God, no matter how he made the universe we would have to figure it out. If it was to complex to figure out we would not be able to function in it.

How does being able to figure out the universe support the idea there is a God?
 
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maybenotcrazy

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If there was a God, no matter how he made the universe we would have to figure it out. If it was to complex to figure out we would not be able to function in it.

How does being able to figure out the universe support the idea there is a God?
Being able to figure out the universe supports the idea of organization of the universe which supports the idea of organizer. An explosion creates chaos. Time produces disorder-> we should really not exist. But that is not all. Think of it this way. A planktonic larva doesn't have any direction in its choosing yet some survive and make it to adulthood as fish in the environment they are meant to live in like a reef. In fact. Evolutionary theory would be most powerful in a disorganized universe. Get me. There would be no end to what could evolve nor would there be identifiable species because evolutionary pressure would not lead to any termini in evolution. There would never be a status quo at any time always transition would be evident. We have species in this universe not by chance but because even if evolution were true, there are niches to be filled by certain types of organisms, as though there were a teleology to the whole design and there is. So. God creates order even when we believe in chaos.
 
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NailsII

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I was just bringing up an idea I have. You have a good answer. I like the current classification system..
Ideas are good and I'm glad you like my answer, although I felt it was a little brief.
In general I like the classification system, but I have a few isues with it.

Why it works only the lord knows, actually I'll say it, he's very nice to us.
Why is not always an appropriate question, but if it didn't work we would find another system.

We'd go crazy if he didn't make things so organizeable. Math wouldn't exist, physics would be incapable of answering questions etc. God gave us all the signs of organization that science has picked up on to be nice to us. We would be so mystified and never come up with any answers at all if he made it less beautiful than he has.
It would appear to me that your faith is a very imporant part of your life.

Now, why atheists post on a christian forum? Alright I know it's like I was. I tried to disprove christian ideas and harass christians in my own day. Terrible.
Why, why not?
More fun than facebook - intelligent questions, debate and differences of opinion.
No need to harass, there are things I can teach you and I;m sure there is plenty you can teach me.

But at least you're civil! Bless you and may you come to know the truth somehow.
Not all atheists are child-eating satan worshipping monsters.....
 
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Upisoft

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God gave us the structure of the universe ...
Let's accept that for the sake of this argument. I doubt that God created the universe, but that is another argument.

... to allow math and physics. I fully believe he could have made everything so difficult to pattern we'd have no science or technology. HE'S REALLY NICE.
So, you think that God intentionally created the universe this way for us, so we can discover things. How can you be sure what was God intention?
Also, if God exists then there is an antipodes, say named Satan. So Satan could give the knowledge to people to make obvious that the Creation is not so great, because it could be understood by mere humans.
So, there are alternative explanations. Show me that your explanation is the correct one.

It was hard for humanity to discover the laws of the universe but by God's mercy they did.
I'm not convinced it was by God's mercy. That's just what you believe, but your belief does not make it true. This is not Terry Pratchett story.

I thank him for the little enlightenment I have from my useless biology degree as well as my relatively advanced understanding of mathematics. I'm not a math wiz but I did take high level college math. Sorry to brag. That's not my point. My point is I know enough to have an opinion and I think it is way too nice for a random universe to have given us techniques to understand it.
Who said it is a random universe? (BTW, brag as much as you want, if that makes you happy.)

That is all. I'm not a logical person though so if you don't like my way of thinking I'm sorry. Anyway it was not my point to get rid of atheists. I WAS an atheist. Perhaps by posting here you'll meet someone who will pray for you. I became a christian through a very difficult ordeal but no doubt someone prayed for me to do so and it was comfort of comfort. But that's enough about myself.
Now if there is truth in what you say, then God had to give us the logic. There is no math or science without logic.
So, it looks like that God was not nice to you, cause you're not a logical person. That's what you say, not me. I just made the conclusion.

However I do think you are not lost for the logic yet and you can understand that the truth to you, that came by faith, may not be a truth to someone else, who does not believe.
 
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Paulos23

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Being able to figure out the universe supports the idea of organization of the universe which supports the idea of organizer.

We haven't figured out the whole universe yet. It may seam organized but it is not.

An explosion creates chaos.

It wasn't an explosion but a rather rapid expansion of the universe. Calling it an explosion is a common misconception.

Time produces disorder-> we should really not exist.

Another common misconception. Your forgetting about things like gravity and energy which can produce order.

But that is not all. Think of it this way. A planktonic larva doesn't have any direction in its choosing yet some survive and make it to adulthood as fish in the environment they are meant to live in like a reef. In fact. Evolutionary theory would be most powerful in a disorganized universe. Get me. There would be no end to what could evolve nor would there be identifiable species becaue evolutionary pressure would not lead to any termini in evolution.

There is lots of species though out the history of this planet, and many currently that fit almost every nitch in our environment. I am sorry evolution doesn't work the way you think it does, it is not that chaotic. There are times of rapid changes for species, and times of slow changes. It depends on the pressures put on the species.

There would never be a status quo at any time always transition would be evident.

When has there been a status quo?

We have species in this universe not by chance but because even if evolution were true, there are niches to be filled by certain types of organisms, as though there were a teleology to the whole design and there is.

They happen to evolve into those niches and stayed there because they didn't get any or much competition for the resources. Because they are there is no indication that someone put them there.

So. God creates order even when we believe in chaos.

I see is that you want to take away from mankind's hard earned achievements and give credit to your God.
 
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maybenotcrazy

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why are there so few transitions between species if there is no status quo. Punctuated equilibrium? Well... There is no evidence at all for that.

take a look at my avatar. It changes from day to day even within the genus centropyge. Is there an intermediate angelfish between all these? Why do they all appear so different. Sorry to be so simpleminded.
 
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Hespera

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Being able to figure out the universe supports the idea of organization of the universe which supports the idea of organizer. An explosion creates chaos. Time produces disorder-> we should really not exist. But that is not all. Think of it this way. A planktonic larva doesn't have any direction in its choosing yet some survive and make it to adulthood as fish in the environment they are meant to live in like a reef. In fact. Evolutionary theory would be most powerful in a disorganized universe. Get me. There would be no end to what could evolve nor would there be identifiable species because evolutionary pressure would not lead to any termini in evolution. There would never be a status quo at any time always transition would be evident. We have species in this universe not by chance but because even if evolution were true, there are niches to be filled by certain types of organisms, as though there were a teleology to the whole design and there is. So. God creates order even when we believe in chaos.


You seem like a nice person who is very sincere in your beliefs. Its not my place or intent to try to spoil someone's belief (even if I could!).

It shows more respect (I think ) for your beliefs, and my understanding of the nature of reality, thought, to not use total misunderstandings or misstatements as part of the picture.

True, explosions are disorderly. But they also create things. Explode some gunpowder, new compounds are formed. Maybe it helps build a roadbed.

"Time produces disorder". Not sure what you are getting at but if you have energy flowing (as we do) then it will act to organize that which it is flowing thru. Like running water sorting sediments, there are countless examples.

"There would be no end to what could evolve nor would there be identifiable species because evolutionary pressure would not lead to any termini in evolution"

There may not be an end to what can evolve but there is no logic to the idea that there would be no identifiable species. In evolution, what works, works. If it aint broke dont fix it.

Well there are a couple of other misunderstandings you have expressed, but thats enough. I'm just thinking if you dont want to believe it, or want to argue against it, you need to understand it better first.
 
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Paulos23

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why are there so few transitions between species if there is no status quo.

Every species is in transition, every species is a transitional form. The rate of change may be a crawl for a period of time, but outside pressures can force the species to change suddenly. If they don't they will go extinct.

Punctuated equilibrium? Well... There is no evidence at all for that.

There is plenty of evidence for that. It explains the distribution of so called transitional species, the appearance of new species, and the extinction of species. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html
 
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Naraoia

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To speak of creation categories in terms of overall form rather than just say due to small characteristics? What I'm getting at is: Is it reasonable to call organisms that are said to arise via parallel evolution to appear the same different just because they are said to have different lineages? Sometimes I wonder why we can't just call euphorbias and cacti different forms of the same thing rather than totally different plant families.
At least an evolutionary classification could be said to be objective. If we take that away, who's to say which classification is right? The one that groups all cacti together based on their flower structure or the one that groups some cacti with some euphorbias and other cacti and other euphorbias with other plants based on their shape? Or something completely different?

why are there so few transitions between species if there is no status quo.
IIRC Darwin reasoned this out quite neatly in Origin. Anyway, a few things to consider:

(1) Intermediates would not be between two extant species but between either of them and their last common ancestor. (Unless one extant species is the ancestor of another)

(2) If a species splits in two to occupy two different niches, the intermediates will be less fit in either niche than the extremes and therefore would not prevail. (Disruptive selection)

There are two exceptions to (2) I can think of: first, intermediates in traits that do not influence fitness, or intermediates in intermediate habitats, could be present in the long term. I don't know how often each occurs in the real world, though.

(3) If a species evolves along with a single, changing environment (directional selection), then better adapted forms of it will outcompete previous versions. At any point in time the dominant form will be the most recent one - intermediates will only exist in significant numbers in the past (of course, the most recent form can easily be transitional towards something that comes after it, but that's a bit hard to tell without functioning crystal balls ;)).

Gradual evolution can be observed in the wild if you have a few decades to watch and measure finches (like the Grants did) or something*, but larger differences, those that are traditionally used to distinguish species**, normally accumulate slowly (on human time scales, that is). What you see when you look at living organisms is just a few frames in a very long movie. Many of them could very well be going somewhere, but you'll never realise that because humans don't live long enough to see where (or where from).

And punctuated equilibrium...

Punctuated equilibrium? Well... There is no evidence at all for that.
... is why the fossil record can also easily miss species-level transitions. New species may arise slowly by human measures, but they can arise very quickly on a geological time scale. If most new species arise from small populations split off from the edge of a larger one (peripatric speciation), there is also a problem of numbers: fossilisation is a rare event, after all.

Islands are wonderful natural experiments on PE: small founder populations in a new habitat, rapid evolution, lots of new species in a "short" time. (In this sense, lakes can be islands too; IIRC the cichlids of Lake Victoria boast the fastest speciation rate of all organisms examined.) I don't know how much evidence exists for the equilibrium part of PE, though.

take a look at my avatar. It changes from day to day even within the genus centropyge. Is there an intermediate angelfish between all these? Why do they all appear so different. Sorry to be so simpleminded.
Not simple-minded at all. In fact, refreshingly intelligent ;)

-----

NOTE: this all makes sense to me but most of it comes off the top of my head, so if I said anything stupid or untrue, let me know. ;)

*Note that in this example, finch beaks don't change steadily in any particular direction but rather fluctuate back and forth as the rains dictate. But it does make the point that evolution is an observable phenomenon even in the wild.

**Looks are a lousy way of defining species, but I digress...
 
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NailsII

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God gave us the structure of the universe to allow math and physics. I fully believe he could have made everything so difficult to pattern we'd have no science or technology. HE'S REALLY NICE. It was hard for humanity to discover the laws of the universe but by God's mercy they did.
Which god?
How can you be so sure it was your god?
Let's not forget, he made the universe so easy that it has taken humans at least 100,000 years to understand as much as we have, which is a long time for so little knowledge.
WE have only had science and technology for a short time compared with the length of our ancestery.

I thank him for the little enlightenment I have from my useless biology degree as well as my relatively advanced understanding of mathematics. I'm not a math wiz but I did take high level college math. Sorry to brag. That's not my point. My point is I know enough to have an opinion and I think it is way too nice for a random universe to have given us techniques to understand it. That is all.
It's a shame you feel that biology is useless to you, I have found it to be a source of awe and wonder.
For some reason, religion is quite common amongst those who are mathematically gifted. I have no such luck, statistics was the limit of my maths education and I'm very glad about it.
But even someone with a basic knowledge of maths can see that order comes out of chaos quite easily.
Example - in your mind, distribute a cloud of matter completely at random over a large distance of space. As the cloud has movement (the force which has distributed it) it is not static.
Now add gravity and watch what happens.
The atoms/molecules clump together and start attracting each other.
I'm sure I don't have to lead you any further with this.
From such simple beginnings, with a few simple laws, solar systems and galaxies are formed.
If you still think the universe is designed for life, take a good look out of your window one night.
We havn't found any other life yet, so I'm sure it could have been much better designed if an all-powerful omnipotent being was in charge.
There is a massive difference between a universe that CAN support life and one that is designed for life - it is obvious that we live in the former, but that is light years away from the latter.

I'm not a logical person though so if you don't like my way of thinking I'm sorry. Anyway it was not my point to get rid of atheists. I WAS an atheist. Perhaps by posting here you'll meet someone who will pray for you. I became a christian through a very difficult ordeal but no doubt someone prayed for me to do so and it was comfort of comfort. But that's enough about myself.
I wouldn't consider myslf a logical person either, but it is through tragedy that I turned my back on god.
It wasn't a concious decision, I just found that the more I prayed and the more I read the bible the weaker my faith became.
It took me few years to accept it but I am just not a religious person, and the more I read and work the more evidence I find to substanciate my position.
So please don't pray for me, don't waste your time.
I guess my brain was just wired up this way, and there's no point lying to myself now is there?
 
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Naraoia

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When DNA analysis gets cheap enough a genetic classification will be developed.
A lot of classification is already DNA-based. GenBank is chock full of sequences from all over the living world. Sequencing a few genes is not that expensive, I think (people do it all the time for phylogenetic analysis, after all).

(And, apparently, more data don't necessarily mean better classification.)

Whole genomes would pose computational problems, I think... aligning and building trees for 20 000 sequences per sample takes a hell of a lot more CPU time than doing the same for 20 sequences.
 
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