Does hunger justify stealing ?

[Radrook]

On the other hand, perhaps he was fearful of being fired for coming across as lazy or complacent if he didn't do his best to catch the thief.

I will never forget the unbounded effusive joy on his triumphantly, ruddy face as he forced that fearfully cringing kid back into the store with the bread still in hand. Seemed totally impervious to the 32 below-zero weather though he only had on a short shirt and an apron. Amazing what a strong surge of highly motivated adrenaline will do!

 

[Celestial Warrior]

I don't believe it is wrong in this case because of what our Lord Jesus spoke himself about it:

Mat 12:1 ¶ At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests

Our Lord Jesus answered this question:Yes, it is okay when done out of necessity to survive and when you have no other way to live.

I sometimes think it is easy to have ethics and morals if you are comfortable and living in a first world country.
Wont we behave just like hungry dogs If we happen to be poverty-stricken? We might fall into prostitution if we have no other skills, no other way of making money. So easy to judge the people who have to make a living like that.
Even selling drugs. If I have kids to feed and few other options, I might be tempted.
Ok if you are a saint, you can resist all this. Sometimes I think saints are inhuman.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No kidding!

Therefore, poverty does not force theft. Your premise is flawed. That was my point.

Your argument was that hunger pains drive a person to steal, which is why I said that not all poor people (who are hungry) steal.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I wonder if God has the same understanding of theft that we do. In particular, I'm thinking about a person who measures out a piece of ground and then says, "This is mine. If you want some of what is mine you must give me something of equal (or preferably greater) value".

Uh, people buy land where I come from. Not sure where you live. . .

I also wonder if you lock the doors to your home and car. Hmmm. Shouldn't you leave them open, and post a sign welcoming anyone to take whatever he wants?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Uh, people buy land where I come from. Not sure where you live. . .

I also wonder if you lock the doors to your home and car. Hmmm. Shouldn't you leave them open, and post a sign welcoming anyone to take whatever he wants?

Hi Jimmy. You raise a couple of interesting points. I don't have anything against responsible sharing, meaning that there may be times when it is better to withhold resources, or to prevent usage, or to say "no" or to assign clear guidelines as to who should be using something and who should not at any particular time, based on needs, circumstances, context, and compassion.

But "responsible sharing" is hardly what our current monetary system encourages. Instead we have a system in which goods (whether it be land, food, skills, or time) are distributed according to opportunity, and whoever has the most money has the most opportunity. In a world of finite resources, we cannot take for ourselves without necessarily taking from others. From what I have seen, there is peeee-lenty of resources for everyone and yet, a huge portion of the world lives at a very low standard while a smaller percentage lives at a very high standard, with a huge spectrum in between.

It's an obvious imbalance to any sincere person, and yet the discrepancy has been legitimized on the basis that they have "earned" a greater share of the resources. It has a semblance of truth to it. Some people really do work harder. Some people really do have more intelligence, more confidence, more skills, more insight, more diplomacy, more charisma, more imagination etc. They have a greater sense of leadership, organization, and vision for what they want and they have the ability to put into action all those various skills in a way which really does put them ahead of others.

All these characteristics which help some people to get ahead are genuine gifts from God and so it's easy to believe that "getting ahead" is also a blessing from God. But is that accurate? Is it consistent with the teachings of Jesus, that God would bless a man with imagination and vision for creating, only to have that man use his ability to get rich? Sure, God allows it to happen, (for now) but is "getting ahead" or "earning more of the pie than others" the reason why God blesses some people with more ability than others? To me, that is not consistent with what Jesus taught.

When someone with less ability resorts to stealing from someone with greater ability, I wonder who will have the greater responsibility, in God's eyes.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Mat 12:1 ¶ At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests

Our Lord Jesus answered this question:Yes, it is okay when done out of necessity to survive and when you have no other way to live.

Hi CW. An interesting bit of back story on this example is that the priest only agreed to give the Bread to David because David lied about being on a secret mission from the King (Saul). He used a false pretense to get the bread, so although it wasn't a snatch-and-grab, it was still theft.

Good example.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Stealing is well defined (legally), hunger is slightly less well defined (biopsychology), and justice is not very well defined (philosophy of law and ethics). Because justice is vague you might be able to argue either way.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Maybe I should've made the title, "Does extreme hunger justify stealing?"

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Maybe I should've made the title, "Does extreme hunger justify stealing?"

Can't please everyone

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi Jimmy. You raise a couple of interesting points. I don't have anything against responsible sharing, meaning that there may be times when it is better to withhold resources, or to prevent usage, or to say "no" or to assign clear guidelines as to who should be using something and who should not at any particular time, based on needs, circumstances, context, and compassion.

But "responsible sharing" is hardly what our current monetary system encourages. Instead we have a system in which goods (whether it be land, food, skills, or time) are distributed according to opportunity, and whoever has the most money has the most opportunity. In a world of finite resources, we cannot take for ourselves without necessarily taking from others. From what I have seen, there is peeee-lenty of resources for everyone and yet, a huge portion of the world lives at a very low standard while a smaller percentage lives at a very high standard, with a huge spectrum in between.

It's an obvious imbalance to any sincere person, and yet the discrepancy has been legitimized on the basis that they have "earned" a greater share of the resources. It has a semblance of truth to it. Some people really do work harder. Some people really do have more intelligence, more confidence, more skills, more insight, more diplomacy, more charisma, more imagination etc. They have a greater sense of leadership, organization, and vision for what they want and they have the ability to put into action all those various skills in a way which really does put them ahead of others.

All these characteristics which help some people to get ahead are genuine gifts from God and so it's easy to believe that "getting ahead" is also a blessing from God. But is that accurate? Is it consistent with the teachings of Jesus, that God would bless a man with imagination and vision for creating, only to have that man use his ability to get rich? Sure, God allows it to happen, (for now) but is "getting ahead" or "earning more of the pie than others" the reason why God blesses some people with more ability than others? To me, that is not consistent with what Jesus taught.

When someone with less ability resorts to stealing from someone with greater ability, I wonder who will have the greater responsibility, in God's eyes.

The key fallacy in your post, and what makes it impossible for me to get anywhere in discussions with progressives, is that you see this a s zero-sum game. If I have a dollar, I essential took it from someone or prevented someone from having it. That's not how it works.

You cannot correct cosmic injustice. Firstly, it is not injustice, but God's intentional design. You can't make all girls pretty. Pretty girls and tall handsome guys will have many (earthly) advantages in life, and God made it that way. He designed them. They did not make themselves tall or beautiful.

The other idea which you have wrong is that wealth and power are advantages when it comes to God's economy and His kingdom. They don't. Your seeking to make the poor rich may ruin them for eternity.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Some people really do work harder. Some people really do have more intelligence, more confidence, more skills, more insight, more diplomacy, more charisma, more imagination etc. They have a greater sense of leadership, organization, and vision for what they want and they have the ability to put into action all those various skills in a way which really does put them ahead of others.

This is true. Material success is often the product of working hard and working smart; however, if you were born on a moaning in Tibet rather than Greenwich, CT, all of your hard word and intelligence would never get you to Harvard Business School, and you would never become a hedge-fund manager. You see my point. It was God who placed you in Tibet or Greenwich, CT. His hand allowed, nah, caused your success in business or not.

This is why the indictment of Romans 1 is damning. "Nor gave thanks to Him". . .

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him,​

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You can't make all girls pretty. Pretty girls and tall handsome guys will have many (earthly) advantages in life, and God made it that way. He designed them. They did not make themselves tall or beautiful.

It sounds like you're suggesting the concept of poor vs rich is synonymous with ugly vs pretty; that God made some people to be poor and some people to be rich. And, if the poor and the rich, (and presumably the ugly and the pretty) don't give thanks for their lot in life, then they'll be damned?

I'm guessing, based on the context of the thread, when the poor are starving to death, they should be thankful for that, too? Have I misunderstood your point?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It sounds like you're suggesting the concept of poor vs rich is synonymous with ugly vs pretty; that God made some people to be poor and some people to be rich. And, if the poor and the rich, (and presumably the ugly and the pretty) don't give thanks for their lot in life, then they'll be damned?

I'm guessing, based on the context of the thread, when the poor are starving to death, they should be thankful for that, too? Have I misunderstood your point?

God indeed placed in the very places were are now. Being born in a first world country vs a third world country is His doing, not ours.

We should thanks to God for all things, just as Job did. Would you rather be hungry or watch all of your children slaughtered?

 

[Dave-W]

Hi CW. An interesting bit of back story on this example is that the priest only agreed to give the Bread to David because David lied about being on a secret mission from the King (Saul). He used a false pretense to get the bread, so although it wasn't a snatch-and-grab, it was still theft.

Good example.

And yet our Lord used it as an example to clarify his disciples harvesting and eating grain on the sabbath. Had it truly been a theft, then our Lord was guilty of the sin of stealing and would be invalid for the perfect sacrifice for us.

 

[brinny]

if someone is starving, you GIVE them what they need, FORGIVE them, pay for what they've stolen, and help them with a job, shelter, support, etc. and network and advocate for them.

and begin a "pay-it-forward" tradition.

Then you open a soup kitchen.

And you hire that person, and the person they have "paid-it-forward" to.

And so on and on.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

And yet our Lord used it as an example to clarify his disciples harvesting and eating grain on the sabbath. Had it truly been a theft, then our Lord was guilty of the sin of stealing and would be invalid for the perfect sacrifice for us.

Hi Dave. Yep, the lesson about Sabbath seemed to be the point which Jesus felt was the more significant, and yet David did take the bread under false pretense. I wonder if the priest would have eventually given it to David anyway, but David used the story about being on business for the king to save time arguing.

I like that you underlined the word "truly" because it indicates that what is true isn't always clear or even the same from case to case.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Justice is what someone deserves, and from there its what we ought to do. So morality and justice are similar if not the same.

I think we ought to feed such people who are out of "luck" (destiny, providence etc), so therefore if were not feeding them the duties they have to us as in a social contract - if they're regarded as reciprocally binding between them and us - are lessened.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

God indeed placed in the very places were are now. Being born in a first world country vs a third world country is His doing, not ours.

Hmm, you present an interesting dilemma. While I agree it's true that where a soul enters the world does seem to be the province of God himself, I can't say the same for distinctions like, "first world" and "third word". Those distinctions exists because of the choices we humans make.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Does the strong desire itself justify the means in which to fulfill it? Can someone who is hungry walk away "justified" in doing something that is a criminal act, which would get anyone else prosecuted?

If the theft is justified because of hunger then rape would be justified because of strong sexual desire, and so on, and so on with any crime.

The other problem, which I believe one other poster brought up is that of the cause of the hunger. For instance, I know people, some are relatives, who have no money because they are too lazy to work. Would they be justified in stealing food?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

if someone is starving, you GIVE them what they need, FORGIVE them, pay for what they've stolen, and help them with a job, shelter, support, etc. and network and advocate for them.

and begin a "pay-it-forward" tradition.

Then you open a soup kitchen.

And you hire that person, and the person they have "paid-it-forward" to.

And so on and on.

What if they refuse to work? Every see the John Stossel report in which he offered to feed them if they did some small chore? Not one person showed up.