Does hell prove GOD is mean spirited?

[TedT]

On the other point, grace is an act of God. Even your faith is given to you by God. The lost cannot come to Jesus without Gods help. Without this help You cannot make a choice for Christ.

An excellent summation of the gospel of salvation of sinners...but meaningless to account for the election promise given to innocents who had not sinned yet, before the foundation of the world.

It is not necessary that the rules for our election must follow the strictures of our salvation from sin: (who thought they must anyway?):
Salvation: offered to sinners.
Election: offered to innocents.

Salvation: offered to those enslaved to sin, ie, without a free will therefore needing grace.
Election: offered to innocents who had not yet sinned so grace was not yet necessary for them to choose by their free will.

Salvation: offered to those sinners who were already predestined to receive HIS grace.
Election: offered to innocents if they would put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as their saviour at which time they would receive HIS election promise of a predestination to salvation from all sin (if needed) to someday become His heavenly Bride.

Hope this helps...

 

[Der Alte]

A few decades ago I read a novel by John D. McDonald. His books usually featured a character named Travis McGee. I think McGee referred to himself as a "Recovery Specialist." On one of his recoveries McGee was involved in a situation in Mexico. As the "hero" was talking to a Mexican police official, I think. The official said to Travis "The trouble with the United States, parents do not teach their children that if you touch the hot stove it will burn you." Or words to that effect.
So what? God has told all mankind if you touch the hot stove it will burn you. Like it, don't like, the stove does not care.
"Good person" "bad person" "somewhere in between" the stove doesn't care.
Any place, any situation, any circumstances the stove doesn't care.

 

[TedT]

His books usually featured a character named Travis McGee. I think McGee referred to himself as a "Recovery Specialist."

I read a lot of Travis McGee stories and liked them a lot...

 

[RickReads]

The setting of the time was chosen to include the postponement...

The plan of God has been the same from the beginning. it isn't a postponement when it has been always the same plan.

Jesus said He will not lose any that the Father has given Him. It's a set number and a certain amount of time must be given in order for that number to be met. There are no postponements and its all about fulfilling everything the prophets have spoken. in my opinion, there's not enough emphasis and teaching of this spiritual truth.

if the judgment came before the time Jesus would not receive the number of believers He is supposed to.

As for suffering, it is caused by sin not the elect.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[TedT]

The plan of God has been the same from the beginning. it isn't a postponement when it has been always the same plan.

Of course the delay in judgement has always been the plan if an elect (someone who was under HIS promise of salvation) should chose to sin but if HE had HIS way with evil HE would destroy it with all evil people at the very moment they chose to be evil..because HE abhors evil and cannot abide with it! This is the inevitable result of the ultimate disvalue of sin and HIS abhorrence of it.

HE is light and evil is dark and light by nature destroys darkness...so why are evil and evil people NOT yet destroyed? Why are they not judged yet? HE tells us the judgement must not happen yet because of the sins of the good seed...if that is not a postponement of the judgment until the good seed are holy, choose your own word to describe this delay.

 

[Cormack]

Does Hell prove God is miserable and mean spirited? It depends on how you understand the purpose of hell and hellfire.

If hell is the popular picture of an eternal torture chamber, a place where fire is used as Gods instrument to extract “justice” forever and ever, I’d say yes, yes that’s a very mean spirited being.

Mean spirited yes. Maybe not miserable, he might feel incredible satisfaction at the punishing of wicked men, women and children forever. It could be a source of happiness for him.

We’d have to retreat into mystery and the unknown in order to continue to describe such a being as good, loving and kind of spirit. Many users would be all too happy to do so as a show of their (supposed) piety.

People who hate humanity or are on an ego trip would relish the opportunity to condemn mankind and live out lurid fantasies about the torture and continued undoing of sinful people, having often suffered at the hands of wicked people in this life.

To view hellfire as an annihilation of the sinner (or even their means to redemption) paints the picture of a more caring, kind spirited God.

I hope @SpeckOdust doesn’t throw out the baby with the bath water. God gave Israel over to a hardened heart for the purpose of leading Jesus to the cross and buying back lost people, hardening in that case was about bringing in salvation, not for the purpose of burning Israel forever.

 

[TedT]

If hell is the popular picture of an eternal torture chamber, a place where fire is used as Gods instrument to extract “justice” forever and ever, I’d say yes, yes that’s a very mean spirited being.

All of these, though not absolutely common to all denominations, thee contentions are spread across all denominations of believers:

IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.

 

[Cormack]

IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,

There’s an obvious choice to be made by God in where and how he would treat the wicked sinners who commit supposedly unforgivable sins.

Not only are we spirits that can govern our actions, and as a result we’re held accountable for those actions, but also God has the power of a self governing Spirit. God decides what he wants to do with the hard hearted.

The point is if God has the choice to do anything he wants with the wicked sinner, and he wants to torture those people forever, is that mean spirited?

No man (however evil) wants to torture someone forever, we relent, experience change and go through moods whereupon our better nature comes out, or at least our evil nature wanes.

In God however there’s no shadow of turning, so people can argue and choose to believe that he’s consigned the wicked into hell forever with no desire to relent.

If hell were simply Gods prison of loneliness for the self centred and wicked, people who forever judge themselves unworthy of eternal life in his kingdom, I’d write he’s not mean spirited for locking the doors on them.

Like a parent trying to protect one of their vulnerable children from the abusive tendencies of another, God is kind of spirit and loving to shut out the child abusers.

It all depends on that original question. What is the purpose of hell and hellfire. How much justice and retribution can God exact from a sinful, angry, snivelling human before we start seeing God as an abuser himself.

 

[RickReads]

Of course the delay in judgement has always been the plan if an elect (someone who was under HIS promise of salvation) should chose to sin but if HE had HIS way with evil HE would destroy it with all evil people at the very moment they chose to be evil..because HE abhors evil and cannot abide with it! This is the inevitable result of the ultimate disvalue of sin and HIS abhorrence of it.

HE is light and evil is dark and light by nature destroys darkness...so why are evil and evil people NOT yet destroyed? Why are they not judged yet? HE tells us the judgement must not happen yet because of the sins of the good seed...if that is not a postponement of the judgment until the good seed are holy, choose your own word to describe this delay.

You are injecting all this into the scripture, which the scripture doesn't support your position. God didn't immediately destroy the angels when they sinned. They have an appointed time for their judgment just as we do.

And FYI the seed in the parable of the sower is the gospel.

 

[TedT]

The point is if God has the choice to do anything he wants with the wicked sinner, and he wants to torture those people forever, is that mean spirited?

Ahhh, I agree that wanting to torture someone forever is mean spirited. I do not think this was HIS intent, rather, suffering is a byproduct of the absolute necessity to sequester HIS heavenly reality, HIS heavenly marriage, from the inevitable leavening / corrupting power of their evil. The banishment to the outer darkness forever was the only alternative to leaving Satan and his demonic angels here in this reality but alas, it is apparently feels like an eternal fire.

IF they are indeed not destroyed into non-existence, then it is not because HE wants to enjoy their suffering for eternity from any mean spiritedness but because HE created them to be eternally alive, ie, self and other aware. This might have been because in HIS heaven if HIS bride was not created eternal, ie, they were mortal, their mortality might eventually overcome them and HE would have to start all over again, but who knows, it is all speculation.

Either way I trust that it is the most loving thing HE could do for them given the depths of their commitment to the unforgivable sin.

 

[TedT]

They have an appointed time for their judgment just as we do.

And FYI the seed in the parable of the sower is the gospel.

Why is the appointment so late in HIS scheme of things after thousands of years of suffering their gentle ministrations...? Why force the good seed to suffer them by living with them? The parable says it is because the good seed might be pulled up with the reprobate IF the judgment comes too quickly, that is, if it is not postponed.

As for the metaphor of seed meaning the gospel: the parable has an explanation which must be a real explanation understandable on face value and not just an extension of the metaphor by further metaphor leading into confusion.

And the seed metaphor is EXPLAINED THUS:
MATT 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons, children, people, of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons, children, people, of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Only the most desperate eisegetics can twist sons into the gospel...May I suggest another look at these verses with a more critical eye?

It is also worthy of note that the verb to sow cannot mean to create as the devil sows also so it must have its original meaning of to move from a place of storage to a scatter in a place of growth. So where were they before they were sown into the world? Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, all the nations who forget God. They have been in Sheol, waiting...

And before you get all excited that the KJV interprets returned as turned into, a quick look at an interlinear bible tells us that the word is
S7725. shub: to turn back, return
Phonetic Spelling: shoob
Definition: to turn back, return

So the KJV is an eisegetical interpretation, not translation, designed to keep us from the implications of the actual word used, ie, to return to sheol, by making it mean exactly the opposite, ie to turn into implies they have not been in Sheol before while to return implies the opposite, sigh.

 

[Cormack]

rather, suffering is a byproduct of the absolute necessity to sequester HIS heavenly reality,

Doesn’t God also decide on the manner in which he wants to shield or sequester his heavenly reality? Choosing to send the non elect into an eternity of suffering seems strange when we also write it’s not Gods “intent,” but rather a “byproduct.”

God alone possesses innate immortality, meaning if anyone lives apart from him forever and ever, it can’t be anything but intentional on the Fathers part.

The banishment to the outer darkness forever was the only alternative to leaving Satan and his demonic angels here in this reality but alas, it is apparently feels like an eternal fire.

My point was more to do with the human casualties of hellfire, many people argue that wide is the way and most of the world are on their way towards eternal hellfire. Are there non angelic beings who are doomed to spend forever in the outer darkness?

 

[TedT]

wide is the way and most of the world are on their way towards eternal hellfire.

This just means that there are more people who sinned the unforgivable sin than there were elect people who rebelled against the call for judgment. But the remaining elect who chose holiness over rebellion outnumber all sinners by billions to one...imCo.

Of course, for those folk who believe that we are ALL created on earth by conception or birth, wide is the way is a huge problem as it suggest that HE created far far more to go to hell than HE created to be saved...quite the blasphemy, eh?

 

[Cormack]

Doesn’t God also decide on the manner in which he wants to shield or sequester his heavenly reality?

God alone possesses innate immortality, meaning if anyone lives apart from him forever and ever, it can’t be anything but intentional on the Fathers part.

Are there non angelic beings who are doomed to spend forever in the outer darkness?

Do you have any thoughts on these questions and this one section on immortality from my previous message?

 

[RickReads]

Why is the appointment so late in HIS scheme of things after thousands of years of suffering their gentle ministrations...? Why force the good seed to suffer them by living with them? The parable says it is because the good seed might be pulled up with the reprobate IF the judgment comes too quickly, that is, if it is not postponed.

As for the metaphor of seed meaning the gospel: the parable has an explanation which must be a real explanation understandable on face value and not just an extension of the metaphor by further metaphor leading into confusion.

And the seed metaphor is EXPLAINED THUS:
MATT 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons, children, people, of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons, children, people, of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Only the most desperate eisegetics can twist sons into the gospel...May I suggest another look at these verses with a more critical eye?

It is also worthy of note that the verb to sow cannot mean to create as the devil sows also so it must have its original meaning of to move from a place of storage to a scatter in a place of growth. So where were they before they were sown into the world? Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, all the nations who forget God. They have been in Sheol, waiting...

And before you get all excited that the KJV interprets returned as turned into, a quick look at an interlinear bible tells us that the word is
S7725. shub: to turn back, return
Phonetic Spelling: shoob
Definition: to turn back, return

So the KJV is an eisegetical interpretation, not translation, designed to keep us from the implications of the actual word used, ie, to return to sheol, by making it mean exactly the opposite, ie to turn into implies they have not been in Sheol before while to return implies the opposite, sigh.

The Bible plainly says the seed is the gospel. You have to mix up your parables to make your interpretation work. in the parable of the wheat, the seed is still the gospel per verse 19. The seed then sprouts up as a believer in the form of wheat.

You have to reconcile what is said in the entire passage. Since you do not you draw the wrong conclusion.

Mark 4:14
The sower soweth the word.

Matthew 13:19

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.

2 Corinthians 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

 

[smittymatt]

Oooooh, a severely spiritual putdown! I'm sure I should be devastated. Now, having got past your obvious spiritual superiority, how is it that that isn't a concise summary of the post to which I was replying? That if anyone has the temerity to not accept God's offer of salvation, even due to complete ignorance of it, then God will chuck them into Hell to be roasted forever. Have I missed some salient point here?
Wow. So the effect is that by God's design the default for anyone who isn't a Christian is eternal torture.

Now it may be that I can't develop any real enthusiasm for that idea is that I'm eat up with sin. Nothing more likely, I'm very aware of a variety of areas in which I suck. BUT... I can't bring myself to imagine designing a system in which any part or function of my creation that failed would evoke such anger and hatred in me that I'd keep it around forever just to spite it for being faulty. I confess to being a lousy sinner, but I reckon I'd either repair it or tear it down for parts. If it was a sentient critter of any kind, I reckon I'd either put it out of my misery as humanely as possible, or, again, fix it.

We're told that God loves the world, and the His mercy endures forever. But we're also told that His anger and malice against sinners is such that He preserves than alive forever just for the sake of torturing them. Something's wrong there somewhere, don't you think? Sounds like God isn't merciful at all, or else the idea of eternal torture isn't true.

Me, I can't see God being less merciful than I am. "For God so loved the world..", right? But He's also a torturer. I see that as irreconcilable.

Sorry, but IMO the inclusion of a "God cannot..." in any statement renders it false. This is the "poor God..." excuse, that says "Gee whiz, God does so want this and that, but He just can't make it happen." That's rubbish. God is GOD, Who spoke the universe into being, but suddenly He's helpless because He can't correct the ill-effects of some idiotic, ill-advised, ridiculous, numb-skulled decision one of His creatures made. Really? Bah!

Without "God's interference" there is no creation, nor any creatures to make stupid decisions. But suddenly His creations have the power to thwart His will, and There's Nothing He Can Do. Who's in charge here, for crying out loud? US? What a ghastly thought!

God is not, nor can He be, bound by any act of His creatures, else He's no God at all. The "poor God" excuse for making God into a torturer is as pernicious as it is false.

What do you believe happens to those who don't trust in Jesus after they die?

 

[TedT]

The Bible plainly says the seed is the gospel.

Nope. Different parables. Different metaphors which does not jibe with your eisegetical need to combine them as to deny the obvious import of verses 36-39. The parable of the sower is about the necessity to have an open heart. The parable of the seeds is a bit of theological history about why the demons are not judged yet and how we have come to live together with them until our full sanctification.

I follow the words as written - it is you that twists the people of the kingdom and of the evil one to mean the gospel. You might need seeds to be the gospel in both parables to assuage cognitive dissonance within your theology about the source of demons on earth but that is NOT what Christ told us when He said the seeds are people.

 

[RickReads]

Nope. Different parables. Different metaphors which does not jibe with your eisegetical need to combine them as to deny the obvious import of verses 36-39. The parable of the sower is about the necessity to have an open heart. The parable of the seeds is a bit of theological history about why the demons are not judged yet and how we have come to live together with them until our full sanctification.

I follow the words as written - it is you that twists the people of the kingdom and of the evil one to mean the gospel. You might need seeds to be the gospel in both parables to assuage cognitive dissonance within your theology about the source of demons on earth but that is NOT what Christ told us when He said the seeds are people.

You aren't making sense because I haven't said anything about demons.

The path to salvation begins with the gospel (seed). The harvest is an appointed time.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[TedT]

You aren't making sense because I haven't said anything about demons.

If the reprobate doomed to hell are not the demons who sinned the unforgivable sin, ... who are they??? How do you think they were created?

30 Let both grow together until the harvest:

I've told you what and when I think the time of the harvest means, why throw this verse at me like a stone at my head and not tell me what you think it means??? Is proclamation better than discussion???

 

[RickReads]

If the reprobate doomed to hell are not the demons who sinned the unforgivable sin, ... who are they??? How do you think they were created?



I've told you what and when I think the time of the harvest means, why throw this verse at me like a stone at my head and not tell me what you think it means??? Is proclamation better than discussion???

on the first part, I would need some clarification and some scripture because I'm not seeing what your point is supposed to be.

And I think harvest time is rhetorical. Indicative of an ordained time.

Fact remains that in order to believe you have to hear or read the gospel. The beginning of your faith is hearing the gospel, it seeds you.