Does hell prove GOD is mean spirited?

[TedT]

From the topic: Not Redeemable???
Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by SpeckOdust, Feb 27, 2017.

My question is this: Is there ANYONE God deems "Not Redeemable"? If God turns anyone over to that "Reprobate-Mind",does that mean that Individual's fate is sealed for Eternity to just die in his/her Sins and go to an Endless-cycle of Torment,Fear,Pain,Regret,Rejection or Abandonment to Hell's Horrors?

Is God so mean and miserable?

I suggest that GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will and and equal ability and opportunity to accept, by faith, (an unproven hope), HIS claims and proposal of marriage and so became HIS elect
and
an equal ability and opportunity to reject HIM by faith, (their unproven hope) that HE was lying and as a liar HE must be a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

They are not beyond redemption as unforgivable because GOD has chosen them to be so out of a fit of pique or meanness but because of their own free will decision to repudiate HIM as their GOD, Saviour and husband.

How are they unforgivable?
The unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son, Col 1:23. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god. As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot.

They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their free will and their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM, because even when they learned the truth, they loved sin more than the truth, Rom 1. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god, even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7 and Roman 1:18+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners flung to the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much (HE hates ALL sin equally) but because when HE asked us to choose to be HIS Bride or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with though there would be legal and natural consequences... warnings which some ignored.

Aside:
The sheep who went astray became HIS sheep by putting their faith in HIM as telling us the truth and by putting their faith in the Son as their saviour from any sin or condemnation but then, after getting His election promise they would never be condemned, ie, they were safe from hell, they chose to rebel against the judgement of their friends who were now unforgivable, alas, forcing it postponement, Matt 13:27-30 becoming evil themselves but forgivable.

 

[Mark Quayle]

They are not beyond redemption as unforgivable because GOD has chosen them to be so out of a fit of pique or meanness but because of their own free will decision to repudiate HIM as their GOD, Saviour and husband.

You present these as the only logical options.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God is not mean and miserable - man is...

 

[Sabertooth]

Hell proves that separation from God --what unrepentant sinners ultimately want-- is agonizing.

 

[Ahermit]

Would you support a lie?
Those that base their life on fear, assumptions, superstitions, worldly concepts, and what is not true, have chosen to be in denial of the Truth. Only their false-self, their ego, is fearful. They fear the Truth so much that they falsely believe they will go insane ('I'm losing my mind') and/or die ('this will kill me'). So, the Truth (God), out of Love will not support their disbeliefs, for to do so will contradict what is not true as being true. That is why God will say "I don't know you...". See _ Luke 13:27.

 

[St_Worm2]

I suggest that GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will and and equal ability and opportunity to accept, by faith, (an unproven hope), HIS claims and proposal of marriage and so became HIS elect and an equal ability and opportunity to reject HIM by faith, (their unproven hope) that HE was lying and as a liar HE must be a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

Hi Ted, while I agree with some of this, how can your proposition be true (that everyone/everywhere has been given "equal ability and opportunity" by God to accept or reject the Lord Jesus), since we know that there are still millions (billions?) today in the unreached people groups of the world who die never knowing anything about Him or the faith (or even having heard His Name in some cases)?

Thanks!

--David

.​

 

[Der Alte]

Romans 1:24
(24) Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves.
Romans 1:26
(26) For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,
Romans 1:28
(28) And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is not mean and miserable - man is...

Written in response to...?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Written in response to...?

The OP...

 

[fhansen]

From the topic: Not Redeemable???
Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by SpeckOdust, Feb 27, 2017.





I suggest that GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will and and equal ability and opportunity to accept, by faith, (an unproven hope), HIS claims and proposal of marriage and so became HIS elect
and
an equal ability and opportunity to reject HIM by faith, (their unproven hope) that HE was lying and as a liar HE must be a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

They are not beyond redemption as unforgivable because GOD has chosen them to be so out of a fit of pique or meanness but because of their own free will decision to repudiate HIM as their GOD, Saviour and husband.

How are they unforgivable?
The unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son, Col 1:23. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god. As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot.

They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their free will and their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM, because even when they learned the truth, they loved sin more than the truth, Rom 1. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god, even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7 and Roman 1:18+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners flung to the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much (HE hates ALL sin equally) but because when HE asked us to choose to be HIS Bride or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with though there would be legal and natural consequences... warnings which some ignored.

Aside:
The sheep who went astray became HIS sheep by putting their faith in HIM as telling us the truth and by putting their faith in the Son as their saviour from any sin or condemnation but then, after getting His election promise they would never be condemned, ie, they were safe from hell, they chose to rebel against the judgement of their friends who were now unforgivable, alas, forcing it postponement, Matt 13:27-30 becoming evil themselves but forgivable.

Hell is for those who reject what God is. And since existence, itself, is inherently good, God doesn’t owe them annihilation. We can choose to exist in a world of goodness and love, or wallow in a place of cold, selfish, pride.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is not mean and miserable - man is...

True that. Seems you meant to make a point. Care to elucidate?

 

[Carl Emerson]

True that. Seems you meant to make a point. Care to elucidate?

My question is this: Is there ANYONE God deems "Not Redeemable"? If God turns anyone over to that "Reprobate-Mind",does that mean that Individual's fate is sealed for Eternity.......
....... Is God so mean and miserable?

The answer is NO.

Paul was the chief of sinners - orchestrating and abetting the murder of Christians, yet Jesus meets him on the road and his life and destiny is completely turned around by the Love and Grace of Jesus.

We note however that Paul had a conscience under all the hatred, anger, deceit and violence. Hence the question Jesus asks him about 'kicking against the pricks'

So as long as the conscience is unseared there is still a way to redemption although the journey back can be long. (for me 7 years)

God is not mean and miserable - we have chosen to make our lives such.

He met me on the way - picked me up and put me back on the rails - those who seek will find.

 

[TedT]

Hi Ted, while I agree with some of this, how can your proposition be true (that everyone/everywhere has been given "equal ability and opportunity" by God to accept or reject the Lord Jesus), since we know that there are still millions (billions?) today in the unreached people groups of the world who die never knowing anything about Him or the faith (or even having heard His Name in some cases)?
Thanks!
--David

A reasonable question with a reasonable answer based upon scripture...or rather, a particular interpretation of dozens of verses of scripture.

Our Preconception Existence:
Col 1:23 ...if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. This verses says the gospel HAS BEEN proclaimed as a finished past act to every creature, person, under heaven, ie, ever created. It has never been fulfilled on earth, especially in light of the theory of mankind's continued creation on earth even though the finished in the past tense of the verb proclaimed is very evident.

Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I know that many eisegetical interpretations of the words bene `elohim are used to refer to angels but the words are actually all the sons of GOD! If you are a son of GOD then this verse can be interpreted as putting you as a witness to the creation without doing any damage to the words though this doctrine is an orthodox heresy. It might be of note to some that both legitimate and illegitimate children of GOD are included in this verse:
Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.

This pov also supports the all inclusive language of Rom 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. That is: the wicked know the truth but suppress it.
19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Oh yes? When did HE make the truth plain to them?
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. This verse says that the proof of HIS eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen since the creation by means of HIS workmanship in the creation, so all men are without an excuse for their rejection of HIM as their GOD.

Why do I chose to contend that this proof was HIS work of creating the physical universe and not just referring to that part of the universe we see today?

First:
The concept that the wonders of creation as seen on and from the earth indicate the ONE TRUE GOD contradicts 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. And if everyone knew the proof of HIS power and divinity, how / when were / are HIS qualities of eternal power and divine nature "hidden?" The ordinary interpretation is that here and now on earth they are NOT HIDDEN but CLEARLY SEEN! So when were/are they hidden to fulfill this verse?

Pre-Conception Existence Theology, (aka PCE), suggests that for GOD to offer a true free will choice (ie, NO coercion) to HIS creation, that, to offset the great coercive power of HIS glory and divinity, He had to hide HIS glory until after the choices were over. HE had to appear to be the same as everyone else while HE claimed to be their GOD and creator, to make HIS proposal of marriage and to teach us the gospel of salvation from sin (and hell) was only by faith in the Son as our saviour: Col 1:23.

And after everyone made their free will decisions about HIM and HIS message, separating all of creation into the elect, both holy and sinful, and the non-elect reprobate, HE proved HIMself to everyone created in HIS image by the creation of the physical universe! But even this display of the proof of HIS divinity and power could not overcome the sinfulness of those who sinned against HIM, both elect sinners and reprobate sinners, who were clouded in their mind by the enslaving power of evil as revealed to us in Romans 1:18+ to the end.

In other worlds, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is seen as fulfilled pre-earth, not in the world.

If all the verses in support of this contention were provided here it would be a long essay so I will instead give a bit more introduction.

These lines in Rom 1 are often called the Universal Witness to HIS power and glory and refer to their being evident when we study HIS creation...EXCEPT,

there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY that anyone who studied the nature of creation ever came to believe in the power and glory of YHWH! In fact, without Christian teachers explaining this doctrine, no one has ever taught it. Is this a great world wide conspiracy to deny that they had already understood YHWH's power and divinity before the missionaries arrived with these verses??

Some people like to sidestep this issue by claiming that the verses refer only to the understanding of some god or other, some necessity for a creator but that is NOT what Romans claims at all. It clearly refers to the Living GOD, YHWH.

Think of the pagans, Buddhists (and perhaps Hindus) whose study of the nature of reality proves themselves to be of the divine essence and that they may become fully divine in their day. Proof of YHWH by looking at nature? Not at all... If their damnation depended upon this verse to PROVE their lack of excuse, they would live forever since it fails so miserably.

This lack of reality for this interpretation of this verse demands a new look at it from a new pov.

"...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen," "being understood by the things that are made" implies that these damned souls saw the creation of the world that clearly showed to them the proof of the invisible things they previously rejected as lies, except it is never considered due to the bias orthodoxy has in favour of the 'we are created on earth' theory.

Former missionary Daniel Everett reported that the Amazon people called the Pirahã (Hiatíihi or The Straight Ones) do not have gods nor a creation myth. Does that imply they DO have an excuse?

 

[St_Worm2]

A reasonable question with a reasonable answer based upon scripture...or rather, a particular interpretation of dozens of verses of scripture.

Our Preconception Existence:
Col 1:23 ...if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. This verses says the gospel HAS BEEN proclaimed as a finished past act to every creature, person, under heaven, ie, ever created. It has never been fulfilled on earth, especially in light of the theory of mankind's continued creation on earth even though the finished in the past tense of the verb proclaimed is very evident.

Hello again Ted, Colossians is one of the "prison" Epistles that the Apostle Paul wrote after completing his three missionary journeys, so the Gospel had (at least, in a sense anyway) been proclaimed in all of the known/civilized world (basically, the lands surrounding the Mediterranean Sea), meaning that it had been proclaimed to Jews AND to non-Jews as well, to the Jewish nation AND ALSO to the Gentile nations, which was a very 1st Century Jewish, and Pauline, way of thinking, BTW

The thought that EVERY INDIVIDUAL on Earth had already heard (or somehow knew?) the Gospel at that point is absurd (just like it is absurd to believe such a thing today .. or at any other point in the last 2,000 years) .. because we know that it simply isn't true (as there are people who continue to die today, as they always have, w/o ever hearing Jesus' Name, much less knowing anything about Him or the way of salvation .. as I also mentioned in my last post).

You are free to believe whatever you'd like to believe, of course, but (for what it's worth) I STRONGLY disagree with (nearly) everything that you just said in your last post, believing it to be (sadly/for the most part) an unreasonable answer to my reasonable question, because I believe it is an answer that is based upon a very incorrect understanding of certain Scripture verses, twisted in an attempt to offer proof of for a presupposition (about your particular belief concerning "free will" in salvation).

Since you are clearly intelligent and have studied all of this, and have gone as far down this road as you have (with your presupposition, that is), there is nothing else to discuss (as I'm certain that your mind is made up).

My final comments are these, I'm sorry for making such a harsh-sounding reply to you (I HATE doing so ), but I believed that it would be unloving of me to say nothing, since what I believe to be true about the intended/true meaning of most of the Scriptures that you posited for us stands in opposition to what you have come to believe about them!

That said, I pray that God will continue help us both continue to grow in our knowledge and understanding of the truth from His POV, especially where His word is concerned

--David
p.s. - here are some questions for you to consider (there is no reason to answer them here), if the KJV translation or, more specifically, your understanding of that translation (in Colossians 1:23) is correct, then why hasn't the end already come .. Matthew 24:14? Also, if the Great Commission was already completed (after Paul finished his missionary journeys), why is there no mention of that fact by John (in his Gospel or his Epistles), in Luke or Acts, or in any of the other Epistles that were written ~after~ Paul's missionary journeys were completed and Colossians was written?

Finally, why do we see Paul continuing to find new people to witness to (~after~ his missionary journeys were complete) if every individual in the world had already heard the Gospel at that point in time .. e.g. Acts 24-28?

Here's how the NASB translates v23, which I believe to be a clearer/better understanding of what Paul (and the Lord, of course) actually meant in that verse (see the bold type below in particular).

Colossians 1
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven*, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

*(rather than the AV's, "has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven")
​

BTW, it is clearly hyperbole in either case (be it the AV or the NASB translation of that phrase in v23), as I believe that Paul used it there to emphasize the amazing fact that the Gospel had already been preached widely by that time/by the middle of the 1st Century (rather than simply to the Jews alone, like it had been at first).

.​

 

[Tolworth John]

Ultimatley heaven is for those who have said to God, ' Your will be done.'
Hell isfor those to whom God hassaid. 'Your will be done.'

 

[TedT]

Thanks for your interest and taking the time, St_Worm2...

so the Gospel had (at least, in a sense anyway) been proclaimed in all of the known/civilized world

I've heard this being an acceptable rendering of the thought of this verse quite a few times and accept it is a proper way to render the all in all the word for instance to refer to people from all parts of the world but the reference to every creature seems too exact, suspiciously exact, for me to pass it off as happenstance.

which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven*, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

*(rather than the AV's, "has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven")

Oh I am quite aware of the vagaries of language making both these renderings into English to be acceptable. Is it a characteristic of the closed minded to see more possibilities, ie, two, in interpretation than the open minded person who has only seen one?

Anyway, I do not present this and other verses to prove our pre-conception existence from scripture but to show that the pce doctrine IS found in scripture without doing any injustice or finangling of the words in the text! Both interpretations are acceptable so it is up your acceptance of the nature of reality and the leading of the Spirit you follow to choose which is the truth...but to deny it is there to be part of our choosings is to trust a bruised reed, tradition.

Am I to assume that since you only picked this one verse to eisegete that you find my arguments in Job 38:7, Rom 1:20 etc to be germaine? Perhaps this meat was left in the Sun too long and got a bit tough....

The thought that EVERY INDIVIDUAL on Earth had already heard (or somehow knew?) the Gospel at that point is absurd (just like it is absurd to believe such a thing today

Absurd eh? Based upon seeing one or two verses when there are over 3 dozen verses that can be accepted as referring to our pre-conception existence with no damage done to the language of the text?

One commentator suggested that if PCE was a true doctrine then it probably had the most scriptural attestation of any doctrine...

We know we are all sinners at our birth so tell me: which fits the nature of GOD as loving, righteous and just better: that HE creates us sinners enslaved to sin (no free will) under judgement of suffering and death by no choice of our own but by making us to be born into Adam's bloodline and (supposedly) under his federal headship? OR, that HE allowed everyone to choose our own fates by our free will and has predestined the lives of sinners here on earth to fulfil our pre-earth decisions?

there is nothing else to discuss (as I'm certain that your mind is made up).

I see. Your mind is aflutter with possibilities, is it? Not made up at all about my descent into absurdity? Or is there a bit of a double standard where my commitment to my faith is used against me to prove my intransigence but your commitment to your faith proves your integrity??

what I believe to be true about the intended/true meaning of most of the Scriptures that you posited for us stands in opposition to what you have come to believe about them!

Of course, that is expected but I like discussion points, not blanket condemnation without even eisegesis.

I have challenged hundreds of people over the last 15 years or so since I have gone public with my faith to find even ONE VERSE which denies the possibility of our pre-conception existence or which even hints that such a thing is impossible in GOD's creation. Will you be the one to put this challenge to rest?

if the KJV translation or, more specifically, your understanding of that translation (in Colossians 1:23) is correct, then why hasn't the end already come .. Matthew 24:14?

The end has not come yet because the sinful elect are not yet all holy, ie, they do not yet accept the judgment of the reprobate demons as an absolute necessity. Until they are holy the judgment day must be postponed or they may be pulled up with the weeds: Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

It is not their rebirth or understanding of the gospel nor of any doctrine that speeds up, hastens, the coming of the day of judgement but our holiness: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

Also, if the Great Commission was already completed (after Paul finished his missionary journeys),

The great commission is an earthy preaching of the gospel of salvation to all parts of the world of sinners who have lost their faith, their knowledge of the truth and their free will by choosing to sin. But it is not yet preached to everyone while the proclamation in Col 1:23 of the gospel as a call to faith is a finished act, over and done for either all creatures or in all of creation...a meaningless statement if it has NOT been so proclaimed to every creature or in all of creation making the great commission necessary to fulfil this verse as a prophecy, not a finished act which the verb tense says it is.

As Romans 1:18 to the end reminds us, it is the sinfulness of man that destroys their faith and turns them from the truth they have seen proven because they love sin more than the truth. Ie, it is not ignorance of the truth that has the pagan world enthralled in lies, but rebellion to the proof they have seen. So we ask: when on earth did everyone see GOD'S eternal power and divinity proven to reject it for sin and become idolaters, needing a missionary or preacher to open their eyes?

 

[fhansen]

Ultimatley heaven is for those who have said to God, ' Your will be done.'
Hell isfor those to whom God hassaid. 'Your will be done.'

I like that! Or maybe we could say that heaven is for those who say, "Thy will be done" while hell is for those who say, "My will be done".

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have challenged hundreds of people over the last 15 years or so since I have gone public with my faith to find even ONE VERSE which denies the possibility of our pre-conception existence or which even hints that such a thing is impossible in GOD's creation. Will you be the one to put this challenge to rest?

Consider the fact that the concept "pre-conception existence" is a human mental one. God is not bound by time like we are. If we are real at all, it is because HE made us. We are both spirit and body, so it may seem natural to assume there must have been something to us before conception; but if so, it was in God's mind at Creation —not before.

Therefore, when God says that he alone is from everlasting to everlasting, the great I AM, he is denying that we are like him in that; we are necessarily creatures, not creators.

Now perhaps you would suggest that 'pre-conception' need not mean we always have existed in some form, whether simply in God's mind or whatever, but that our souls were created first, then placed within our forming bodies, I have yet to hear scripture to support that. We don't know what God has done. We don't even know who we are, until we see him as he is.

 

[TedT]

Now perhaps you would suggest that 'pre-conception' need not mean we always have existed in some form, whether simply in God's mind or whatever, but that our souls were created first, then placed within our forming bodies,.

PCE does NOT support the eternal nature of creation, nor reincarnation but only that all spirits created in HIS image were created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7, which Rom 1:18-20 can be seen to support...

I have yet to hear scripture to support that

All my scriptures are of the Hidden variety in which the meaning must be inferred from interpretation and context with help from the Holy Spirit...

I do have a full list of orthodox hidden mysteries but it is extensive so I won't post them unless asked or deem it to be necessary.

Such a mysterious presentation of doctrine is the way some of our favourite doctrines were not taught openly but were hidden for centuries:
the Deity of the Messiah,
the teaching that the OT was NOT the end of all scripture, (as per Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.)
that God would incarnate as a man,
that the Messiah would be an intermediary for prayer,
nor any hint of Adamic sin before the NT.
...without even getting into the words for doctrine that we use that are not in scripture: Trinity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, incarnation, rapture.

So, scriptural doctrine without having a precise scriptural reference is a time honoured procedure, and depends upon rightly dividing the word of truth aka the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, there you go...I have many scriptures about Adam being a sinner before Eve, a lot about a new revelation coming in the end days, about people talking about going back to somewhere else, about people knowing ALL the truth, and judgement postponed ec, etc.

Putting this into the context that the PCE has been rejected as a sideline for 4000 years and declared to be a heresy for ç2000 years with the orthodox interpretation having that weight of supported legitimacy, it is no wonder that people can read the same scriptures over and over and never even notice that it has an alternate interpretation from orthodoxy. The concept of our pce is totally absent from consciousness not just foreign...how could anyone see pce in the verses they read unless they learn of it and look for it?

 

[RickReads]

PCE does NOT support the eternal nature of creation, nor reincarnation but only that all spirits created in HIS image were created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7, which Rom 1:18-20 can be seen to support...


All my scriptures are of the Hidden variety in which the meaning must be inferred from interpretation and context with help from the Holy Spirit...

I do have a full list of orthodox hidden mysteries but it is extensive so I won't post them unless asked or deem it to be necessary.

Such a mysterious presentation of doctrine is the way some of our favourite doctrines were not taught openly but were hidden for centuries:
the Deity of the Messiah,
the teaching that the OT was NOT the end of all scripture, (as per Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.)
that God would incarnate as a man,
that the Messiah would be an intermediary for prayer,
nor any hint of Adamic sin before the NT.
...without even getting into the words for doctrine that we use that are not in scripture: Trinity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, incarnation, rapture.

So, scriptural doctrine without having a precise scriptural reference is a time honoured procedure, and depends upon rightly dividing the word of truth aka the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, there you go...I have many scriptures about Adam being a sinner before Eve, a lot about a new revelation coming in the end days, about people talking about going back to somewhere else, about people knowing ALL the truth, and judgement postponed ec, etc.

Putting this into the context that the PCE has been rejected as a sideline for 4000 years and declared to be a heresy for ç2000 years with the orthodox interpretation having that weight of supported legitimacy, it is no wonder that people can read the same scriptures over and over and never even notice that it has an alternate interpretation from orthodoxy. The concept of our pce is totally absent from consciousness not just foreign...how could anyone see pce in the verses they read unless they learn of it and look for it?

Sounds like you believe your personal interpretation of scripture is supreme over what anyone else understands about the gospel