Does God use atheists when Christians are soft?

[mindlight]

As much as I - as an atheist - would love to be of service, I think you are commiting a huge logical fallacy here.

Fundamentally, it is nothing but the conclusion: "I interprete a certain situation a positive (regardless of whether my interpretation is factually correct or not), so this must have been God's plan."

I hope you can see why this is fallacious.

If it was just logic then maybe but you can test the statements.

The number of Christians in Russia or China can be tested by survey results, the living standards of the poorest Russians by an examination of wages, welfare options, health services etc.

In the case of Israel you can examine the statements of British officers and politicians who were counting the rising costs of the Zionist terrorist campaign in the days before the decision to relinquish the mandate. Clearly it was a factor in the decision to withdraw. In the case of the actions of various Zionist paramilitary groups you can assess their ideologies as to whether they were secular and largely godless in orientation and you can test whether they did indeed succeed in driving out Palestinians from their homes increasing the % of Jews in Israel from about 30 to 82%.

Basically this happened its not just philosophy.

 

[mindlight]

A better question would be...

Does god use anyone to achieve his plans? After all, he's god....so can't he simply make them happen?

We are talking about human history here and Gods role in it. God could just wipe us out as he did in the flood. He could extract a people from the superpower of the age and walk them across a desert to their new homes. He could build a theocratic nation to interact with the peoples of the earth and be a light to the gentiles as he did with Israel. He could come and dwell with us as one of us and show us how. he could build a church which works in real time. Or he could demonstrate his Almighty Sovereignty by playing his worst enemies according to his own purpose. All the above ways are biblical and have happened.

 

[mindlight]

I offer that I understand what you are saying. But if we are with God in His love, we are not puppets . . . but alive in real love which makes us gentle and quiet in spirit so we are pleasing to God, and this is family love which has us caring and sharing as family with various other people . . . not only isolating ourselves in fake love with people we can use for the pleasures we prefer. And God's love makes us more and more alive to care tenderly for any and all people who refuse Jesus.

Meanwhile, ones who are the real puppets . . . love-dead . . . are ones who are being worked-in by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Satan's evil spirit wastes us in boredom, loneliness, dominating won't-take-no-for-an-answer lusts for pleasures and adrenaline-rush stuff, unforgiveness, frustration, hate, fears, worry, and bitterness and arguing and complaining. So, it is good not to be a puppet of such stuff which makes people love-dead and selfishly loving puppets!!!!

Only Jesus can make us alive in real love.Well, we have what happened when Israel turned against God. In early scripture we see how God gave them over to enemy Gentile people. So, when Jews were corrupt, they got taken over by anti-God people. But that did not change their character the way they needed.

Also . . . if Jews now in Israel do not honor their Messiah Jesus, they are against God, now. So, being brought back to Israel is not safe and secure if they keep refusing God. Their own Torah says that if they do not obey God, many horrible things will come upon them. So, I do not assume their return is a real return, if they have not returned to the LORD and are obeying Him.

Therefore, we need to pray God's mercy to them and any and all of us. Any of us can get ourselves in major trouble much more than our selfish deeds might deserve; because sin is not fair. Satan's kingdom is not fair. And yes ungodly people can be used to deal with us if we refuse God and go against Him . . . even if we are His children > this is what happened to Solomon > 2 Samuel 7:14.

Yes the puppets are the ones who do not live in Gods love cause they have no control over what really drives them. God has used such people to achieve his purpose or demonstrate His sovereignty. Yes a godless Israel is in a precarious position. But there are now 20000 Messianic Jews in Israel up from just 12 at independence!! That many people praying in Christs name and for the love of their Jewish neighbours and nation is making a difference and the growth rate is exponential.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The number of Christians in Russia or China can be tested by survey results, the living standards of the poorest Russians by an examination of wages, welfare options, health services etc.

Yes, that sort of thing has been done for thousands of years.
Some people still believe wwI and wwII and Vietnam and Afghanistan were not started by lying ,
and the enemy provides all the 'spin'/ statistics to show that (when they want to).

 

[mindlight]

Yes, that sort of thing has been done for thousands of years.
Some people still believe wwI and wwII and Vietnam and Afghanistan were not started by lying ,
and the enemy provides all the 'spin'/ statistics to show that (when they want to).

So you think I am trying to start a war by lying?!!!

What's my lie? What war am I trying to start?

 

[jayem]

We are talking about human history here and Gods role in it. God could just wipe us out as he did in the flood. He could extract a people from the superpower of the age and walk them across a desert to their new homes. He could build a theocratic nation to interact with the peoples of the earth and be a light to the gentiles as he did with Israel. He could come and dwell with us as one of us and show us how. he could build a church which works in real time. Or he could demonstrate his Almighty Sovereignty by playing his worst enemies according to his own purpose. All the above ways are biblical and have happened.

If you know your history, then you know Oct. 31 last year was the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Castle church. Which started over a century of conflict between Catholics and various Protestant reformationists. I've read estimates that between 6 million and 17 million people died in these religious wars, either from direct hostilities or from ensuing disease and famine. The vast majority of the dead were Christian believers. So what do you think God was doing by wiping out a good portion of Christian Europe in the 16th and 17the centuries? And was the instrument of his plan the Catholics, or Protestants, or both? Or maybe was it Satan's doing and God just looked the other way?

 

[mindlight]

If you know your history, then you know Oct. 31 last year was the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Castle church. Which started over a century of conflict between Catholics and various Protestant reformationists. I've read estimates that between 6 million and 17 million people died in these religious wars, either from direct hostilities or from ensuing disease and famine. The vast majority of the dead were Christian believers. So what do you think God was doing by wiping out a good portion of Christian Europe in the 16th and 17the centuries? And was the instrument of his plan the Catholics, or Protestants, or both? Or maybe was it Satan's doing and God just looked the other way?

Everybody dies. It is how and what for that matters most. Believers on both the Catholic and Protestant side went straight to be with God. Many of those who did not fight or would not stake their lives for God died of old age and went to hell. But those wars which devastated much of Germany and Europe were not all about religion. The desire of secular princes to run their own affairs independent of Rome or to secure influence through Rome was also a factor.

The fruit of those conflicts was a deeper authenticity about God tempered by a horror of the devastation of war.

 

[jayem]

The fruit of those conflicts was a deeper authenticity about God tempered by a horror of the devastation of war.

What is a "deeper authenticity about God?". After 100+ years of fighting, and millions of deaths, Christianity was still divided. Catholicism largely prevailed in southern Europe. While Protestants were strengthened in the north. Though were themselves divided between Lutherans and Calvinists. So what was decided?

But my point is that God doesn't need atheists when it's time for mass slaughter. Christian believers are ready, willing, and able to do the dirty work.

 

[mindlight]

What is a "deeper authenticity about God?". After 100+ years of fighting, and millions of deaths, Christianity was still divided. Catholicism largely prevailed in southern Europe. While Protestants were strengthened in the north. Though were themselves divided between Lutherans and Calvinists. So what was decided?

But my point is that God doesn't need atheists when it's time for mass slaughter. Christian believers are ready, willing, and able to do the dirty work.

#22 made it clear that atheists were one of many tools at Gods disposal. It has historically been a Christian conviction that there is a time for war and a time for peace.

The Catholic - Protestant wars freed Northern Europe and Britain from a suffocating straitjacket of papal and imperial stupidity. There was a new dynamism to economies and cultures after that. Also creedal statements and theology galore. In Southern Europe also there was reform and a new purity and discipline to the faith. I believe God used this Catholic - Protestant rivalry to create the modern world. But in the latest century atheists have been the tools of seismic changes.

 

[com7fy8]

But there are now 20000 Messianic Jews in Israel up from just 12 at independence!! That many people praying in Christs name and for the love of their Jewish neighbours and nation is making a difference and the growth rate is exponential.

What do you think about 1 Corinthians 3:21-23?

To me, this means that ones who are God's children now already own all the world, including the land of Israel. So, what evil people do does not decide what the boundaries are or who really owns any land.

Our Apostle Paul and other obedient Jews have ministered us Gentiles to salvation, so now we co-own "the world" and we co-own even Paul who is a Jew, he seems to say in 1 Corinthians 3:21-23.

So, yes it is God's will for us to pray for Jews who are not saved; but it looks to me like we in Jesus already own all their land! And they can truly enjoy and benefit from owning that land, also, by joining us who are in Jesus.

What do you think?

Ah . . . this is in a thread about if atheists are puppets for God's use. How did we get here? lolololololol

It can be relevant. Ones can be so in uproar and worry about if Jerusalem gets divided and who occupies the promised land. But while ones do not obey God, they are more or less only puppets, and what happens to their physical land is not very meaningful if and while they themselves are rooted in the wrong soil.

Christians are rooted and grounded in love; and so we own everything, plus with God we can turn anything and everything for His all-loving use. So, in God's love with His creativity we are alive and not puppets Meanwhile, others fuss and fight and fret about land while they themselves do not have all they could have in their own character, of God's love.

And yes God uses our prayer to win against this.

 

[mindlight]

What do you think about 1 Corinthians 3:21-23?

To me, this means that ones who are God's children now already own all the world, including the land of Israel. So, what evil people do does not decide what the boundaries are or who really owns any land.

Our Apostle Paul and other obedient Jews have ministered us Gentiles to salvation, so now we co-own "the world" and we co-own even Paul who is a Jew, he seems to say in 1 Corinthians 3:21-23.

So, yes it is God's will for us to pray for Jews who are not saved; but it looks to me like we in Jesus already own all their land! And they can truly enjoy and benefit from owning that land, also, by joining us who are in Jesus.

What do you think?

Ah . . . this is in a thread about if atheists are puppets for God's use. How did we get here? lolololololol

It can be relevant. Ones can be so in uproar and worry about if Jerusalem gets divided and who occupies the promised land. But while ones do not obey God, they are more or less only puppets, and what happens to their physical land is not very meaningful if and while they themselves are rooted in the wrong soil.

Christians are rooted and grounded in love; and so we own everything, plus with God we can turn anything and everything for His all-loving use. So, in God's love with His creativity we are alive and not puppets Meanwhile, others fuss and fight and fret about land while they themselves do not have all they could have in their own character, of God's love.

And yes God uses our prayer to win against this.

Yes Christ is the only legitimate owner of the land of Israel and of all the earth. The ultimate future is that God is all in all. So the silly divisions that Paul drew attention to in 1 Cor 3 are all broken by that focus in Jesus. One man says he follows the pope and another says he follows Luther and another Calvin but Paul says we should follow Christ alone. That said Paul also said in Acts 17:26 that God has determined the exact places where men should live. The promises of the land for the Jews makes them stewards not owners. Also in the current era the notion of property persists and is affirmed by scripture. What we have is ours and ours to give or keep as we choose. There is no compulsion to surrender what is ours though we must pay taxes. It is the Jews who are stewards of the land when they can claim it in the Messiahs name. Without his blood sacrifice they have no access to God to claim the land and no right to claim His promises.Thus the Jewish right to the land and indeed the whole premise of Zionism rests on Messianic Jews. Atheistic Zionists were instruments of Gods purpose because they established the conditions in which Messianic Jews could thrive in Israel

 

[DogmaHunter]

Does God sometimes use atheists when Christians have grown fat and soft and lost the fullness of the biblical worldview?
3 examples I can think of:

What do you mean with "use"?
It sounds like you are saying that god is violating the free will of people to make them do certain specific things. In the specific cases of your examples, I'ld add that these things are also quite horrible things.

 

[mindlight]

What do you mean with "use"?
It sounds like you are saying that god is violating the free will of people to make them do certain specific things. In the specific cases of your examples, I'ld add that these things are also quite horrible things.

No it is not Gods style to violate people' free Will. Indeed atheist Marxists and Maoists needed no force to compell them to commit their atrocities for no reason that survives Eternal scrutiny. The point is God was able to use such actions to move His own plan forward. In that sense people who were puppets of their own sins and sinful outlook became puppets of the very God they opposed.