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Does God suffer?

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Axion

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I believe God suffers and changes, despite being unchanging and unchangeable. This is paradox. A thing we cannot understand. The real St Irenaeus wrote about the suffering of God...

Matthew might certainly have said, "Now the birth of Jesus was on this wise; "but the Holy Ghost, foreseeing the corrupters [of the truth], and guarding by anticipation against their deceit, says by Matthew, "But the birth of Christ was on this wise; "and that He is Emmanuel, lest perchance we might consider Him as a mere man: for "not by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man, but by the will of God was the Word made flesh; "268 and that we should not imagine that Jesus was one, and Christ another, but should know them to be one and the same.

The Gospel, therefore, knew no other son of man but Him who was of Mary, who also suffered; and no Christ who flew away from Jesus before the passion; but Him who was born it knew as Jesus Christ the Son of God, and that this same suffered and rose again, as John, the disciple of the Lord, verities, saying: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have eternal life in His name,"287 -foreseeing these blasphemous systems which divide the Lord, as far as lies in their power, saying that He was formed of two different substances. For this reason also he has thus testified to us in his Epistle: "Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that Antichrist doth come, now have many antichrists appeared; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they departed], that they might be made manifest that they are not of us. Know ye therefore, that every lie is from without, and is not of the truth. Who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist."

If, however, He was Himself not to suffer, but should fly away from Jesus, why did He exhort His disciples to take up the cross and follow Him,- that cross which these men represent Him as not having taken up, but [speak of Him] as having relinquished the dispensation of suffering? For that He did not say this with reference to the acknowledging of the Stauros (cross) above, as some among them venture to expound, but with respect to the suffering which He should Himself undergo, and that His disciples should endure, He implies when He says, "For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose, shall find it. And that His disciples must suffer for His sake, He [implied when He] said to the Jews, "Behold, I send you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify."344 And to the disciples He was wont to say, "And ye shall stand before governors and kings for My sake; and they shall scourge some of you, and slay you, and persecute you from city to city."345 He knew, therefore, both those who should suffer persecution, and He knew those who should have to be scourged and slain because of Him; and He did not speak of any other cross, but of the suffering which He should Himself undergo first, and His disciples afterwards.

This also does likewise meet [the case] of those who maintain that He suffered only in appearance. For if He did not truly suffer, no thanks to Him, since there was no suffering at all; and when we shall actually begin to suffer, He will seem as leading us astray, exhorting us to endure buffering, and to turn the other350 cheek, if He did not Himself before us in reality suffer the same; and as He misled them by seeming to them what He was not, so does He also mislead us, by exhorting us to endure what He did not endure Himself. [In that case] we shall be even above the Master, because we suffer and sustain what our Master never bore or endured. But as our Lord is alone truly Master, so the Son of God is truly good and patient, the Word of God the Father having been made the Son of man. For He fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers,351 and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man,352 and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race.
 
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Wiffey

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I don't think that God "suffers" in the same way people do. Much of human suffering is bound up in fear of the unknown, fear of separation, fear of the future and an inability to control what happens to us and to the ones we love. Also we have pain, sickness, disability and disease. We suffer from our limitations.
None of those factors really apply to God...however, in the incarnation He CHOSE to learn our suffering firsthand. Christ loved and suffered as we do. So I think it is fair that God understands human suffering.

I also believe that God is not neutral or impervious to us. He knows our sufferings and helps to lift our burdens. He is outside of time, and has an eternal perspective. Many times we think He does not love us because we hurt, when He knows far more than we do. Suffering can temper the human heart and be a great opportunity for spiritual growth that may bring about salvation.

I think that God is not pleased when we add to the pains and burdens of our fellow man by choosing sin. I do not think that our sin can damage God directly, but ALL sin hurts humanity. It hurts the one who sins and has a ripple effect on society and on other people. There are no victimless crimes or victimless sin. Even if 2 consenting adults sleep together outside of marriage, they are using and devaluing one another because they do not love each other enough to marry or to be faithful to their partners. Often we are in denial about how our sins hurt those we care about. God loves us and wants the best for us. He detests sin because of the harm it causes US.

Just as there is an aspect to human suffering that is very different from God's nature, there is probably some form of (suffering is not quite the right word) displeasure that is unique to God and far beyond human conception. Such things are incomprehensible to the finite mind and we do well to not try to put God into human terms. I am a fan of apophaticism that way, although I fall into the trap of speculating about it at times!
 
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Rising_Suns

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Axion said:
I believe God suffers and changes, despite being unchanging and unchangeable. This is paradox. A thing we cannot understand. The real St Irenaeus wrote about the suffering of God...

Matthew might certainly have said, "Now the birth of Jesus was on this wise; "but the Holy Ghost, foreseeing the corrupters [of the truth], and guarding by anticipation against their deceit, says by Matthew, "But the birth of Christ was on this wise; "and that He is Emmanuel, lest perchance we might consider Him as a mere man: for "not by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man, but by the will of God was the Word made flesh; "268 and that we should not imagine that Jesus was one, and Christ another, but should know them to be one and the same.

The Gospel, therefore, knew no other son of man but Him who was of Mary, who also suffered; and no Christ who flew away from Jesus before the passion; but Him who was born it knew as Jesus Christ the Son of God, and that this same suffered and rose again, as John, the disciple of the Lord, verities, saying: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have eternal life in His name,"287 -foreseeing these blasphemous systems which divide the Lord, as far as lies in their power, saying that He was formed of two different substances. For this reason also he has thus testified to us in his Epistle: "Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that Antichrist doth come, now have many antichrists appeared; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they departed], that they might be made manifest that they are not of us. Know ye therefore, that every lie is from without, and is not of the truth. Who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist."

If, however, He was Himself not to suffer, but should fly away from Jesus, why did He exhort His disciples to take up the cross and follow Him,- that cross which these men represent Him as not having taken up, but [speak of Him] as having relinquished the dispensation of suffering? For that He did not say this with reference to the acknowledging of the Stauros (cross) above, as some among them venture to expound, but with respect to the suffering which He should Himself undergo, and that His disciples should endure, He implies when He says, "For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose, shall find it. And that His disciples must suffer for His sake, He [implied when He] said to the Jews, "Behold, I send you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify."344 And to the disciples He was wont to say, "And ye shall stand before governors and kings for My sake; and they shall scourge some of you, and slay you, and persecute you from city to city."345 He knew, therefore, both those who should suffer persecution, and He knew those who should have to be scourged and slain because of Him; and He did not speak of any other cross, but of the suffering which He should Himself undergo first, and His disciples afterwards.

This also does likewise meet [the case] of those who maintain that He suffered only in appearance. For if He did not truly suffer, no thanks to Him, since there was no suffering at all; and when we shall actually begin to suffer, He will seem as leading us astray, exhorting us to endure buffering, and to turn the other350 cheek, if He did not Himself before us in reality suffer the same; and as He misled them by seeming to them what He was not, so does He also mislead us, by exhorting us to endure what He did not endure Himself. [In that case] we shall be even above the Master, because we suffer and sustain what our Master never bore or endured. But as our Lord is alone truly Master, so the Son of God is truly good and patient, the Word of God the Father having been made the Son of man. For He fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers,351 and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man,352 and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race.

But it should be noted that St. Irenaeus was speaking about the suffering of the human nature of Christ, not the divine.
 
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Irenaeus

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Davide,

That is what I was about to say.

The divine nature is immutable. In the divine economy, the second person of the Trinity was made flesh and dwelt among us. This same person, as a human being wept at the tomb of Lazarus and had human relationships just as a divine person, he was able to work miracles and had total omniscience in regard to the Samaritan woman's past, for example.

How these human and divine natures interact is a mystery to us. We know the properties of humanity and divinity, and so we must make sure that we do not mix them in regard to the Incarnation of Christ, but also make sure that we do not neglect one or the other.

Also, clskinner, you're absolutely right. People just don't seem to be understanding what Davide and I are saying. We are saying that God's divine nature is unchanging. When the second person of the Holy Trinity was clothed in flesh and dwelt among us, he did not change - as in, his divinity by no means lost its properties. Rather, in the economy of salvation, he assumed unto himself the properties of a human being, but yet his divine nature did not change. Because Christ was made man did not mean his divine nature changed. Sure he changed in his economy with the human race, but in a theological sense, he remains the eternal God. We are blowing over each other's heads. :hug:
 
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Carrye

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Irenaeus said:
Also, clskinner, you're absolutely right. People just don't seem to be understanding what Davide and I are saying. We are saying that God's divine nature is unchanging. When the second person of the Holy Trinity was clothed in flesh and dwelt among us, he did not change - as in, his divinity by no means lost its properties. Rather, in the economy of salvation, he assumed unto himself the properties of a human being, but yet his divine nature did not change. Because Christ was made man did not mean his divine nature changed.

We're fighting the same battle here, bro.

Sure he changed in his economy with the human race, but in a theological sense, he remains the eternal God. We are blowing over each other's heads. :hug:

And in an ontological sense. His being was always God.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And in some sense the Divine, being outside of time, allowed Him to bear the suffering we all deserve for all our sin, past present and future. A gift he freely gave to make it possible (for all that will) to be redeemed. So we do not error I think to express the thought that our sin does, or from our current view did, hurt Him and was(is) a part of that suffering.
 
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MommylovesRJ

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I do believe God suffers for all of us...for all of the self-inflicted suffering...for the suffering inflicted by others. However, I believe that what we perceive as suffering, and the suffering of God for us, are quite different.
 
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Carrye

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MommylovesRJ said:
I do believe God suffers for all of us...for all of the self-inflicted suffering...for the suffering inflicted by others. However, I believe that what we perceive as suffering, and the suffering of God for us, are quite different.

That's the whole problem though. We have to be careful explaining what we mean by "God suffers". If God suffers (in His Divinity), then He changes. And I don't know about you, but I don't want my God to be mutable. If He is, then He's not God.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Maybe they lose us on our belief that He was 100% Divine AND 100% human. It is only in that light that we can say He knows suffering.

It works for trying to explain some things especially to children. However, while giving a human trait like suffering to the Divine is an error, it is just our poor attempt of expressing a very limited and imperfect understanding of God. Who knows His ways? How could we possibly explain or fully understand Him?
 
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