Does God really care about abortion???

[lux et lex]

I'm glad all you could pick from my argument was about fetuses testifying. Again, equating fetuses with animals is false. The animals already exist as living BREATHING things, while a fetus may or may not come into existence as a living and breathing person.

As for the soul...nice red herring.

 

[Zebra1552]

I was more going at you than I was Nadiine...but by saying majority that doesn't make it any better. The majority of women considering abortions are lazy and selfish...pfft. If they were lazy and selfish they wouldn't do anything, keep having kids and live off the state the rest of their lives, because each kid comes with a bonus kick from the government. The real lazy people are the people who shove abstienence only "sex ed" in people's faces. That's the biggest cop out I've ever come across. It's those same yahoos who are anti-choice. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Perhaps if the anti-choice groups could come together with their local public health and planned parenthoods and teach comprehensive sex ed (which includes abstience) there would be a reduction in abortions.

I defined what I meant by laziness, stupidity and lack of foresight:

"Sexually active women who want the option of killing a baby for their stupidity, laziness, or lack of foresight in getting pregnant in the first place when they didn't want it (stupidity), being unwilling to put it up for adoption or seek other options (laziness), or not thinking about what might happen if they have sex (lack of foresight). Of course, this doesn't represent all reasons for abortions, but I suspect it does qualify as the majority."

If you're going to start saying 'that's lazy too' when you don't look at what I called lazy you're just creating a straw man argument. I don't much care about what pro-choice/antichoice/liberatarian/whatever people do with legislation and sex ed. I'm specifically referring to the abortion itself.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm glad all you could pick from my argument was about fetuses testifying. Again, equating fetuses with animals is false. The animals already exist as living BREATHING things, while a fetus may or may not come into existence as a living and breathing person.

As for the soul...nice red herring.

how can you call that a red herring? It has direct bearing on this
subject.

If you can't tell us when a life attains a soul, then you can't know
when it's literally considered "a living soul" can you?
& judging from scripture, God knows us BEFORE we're born and
knits us in the womb; creating our innermost parts.

That's no red herring at all. I'd be real worried about pushing abortion
when you can't know such an important detail (namely as a self proclaiming Christian)

 

[rockytriton]

It has nothing to do with judging others, at least speaking for myself. I do not judge those who have abortions any more than I judge those who lie. Stating that I believe abortion is a sin is a matter of belief, not of judgment.

I agree with you, I believe it's a sin, but as I said before, it's an issue of religion, not an issue of governments and laws.

 

[rockytriton]

I think you've got that a bit wrong. God sanctions the destruction of destructive people- Sodom and Gamorrah, for example, were so evil that only one family was found to be righteous in either of them. It's not the people who God thinks as horrible, but their destructive behavior. If you know anything about the Canaanites, for example, you know that they perform child sacrifices. The entire point of the God-sanctioned destruction of certain peoples is to remove evil from the land. See later argument at the end of this post for that. But there were other reasons that God probably had for destroying them rather than just killing the parents or something like that, what with Him being all knowing and all. We don't know what those are, and we don't know all the circumstances surrounding such sanctions.

I don't think I got this wrong. Are you denying that God told Joshua to kill everything alive in Jericho, men and women, young and old? Young = babies. Nowhere does it say that God took the babies out of Jericho or that he denied the women to have children for years and years previous.

 

[enelra]

In my personal opinion definitely YES.. Abortion is killing the life that God gave. Unexpected pregnancy is not the answer but being a responsible person is what do people should do for them not to get pregnant.

 

[ebia]

ok, but - - the crucifixion WAS literal. Prophecy is of literal events
that take place.

I'm sorry, but we use poetry to express literal things.
Poetry could express a wide range of emotions (which are literal)
and emotions towards certain people (which are literal).

It expresses real things, but the way it expresses them is rarely literal.

I didn't say we make them all literal - but that many of them
can be and are about literal people, places, things, emotions, events etc.

They are about real things (it's meaningless to say literal things), but the way they talk about those isn't literal.

Yes I believe you can, otherwise maybe you can tell us what
the verses mean if they aren't about those not born yet?

It's about how God holds (all of) our life in the palm of his hand.

And if it's all poetic with NO meaning to the reader, then it's utterly
useless to even include them in a Bible other than to say,
"look at me, I can write meaningless poetry"

Poetry has heaps of meaning (or can have). But that meaning isn't accessed by reading them literally.

 

[Zebra1552]

I don't think I got this wrong. Are you denying that God told Joshua to kill everything alive in Jericho, men and women, young and old? Young = babies. Nowhere does it say that God took the babies out of Jericho or that he denied the women to have children for years and years previous.

I think you missed what I was calling wrong.

 

[ghs1994]

Who are you to judge the person who has an abortion? I say leave it to God, he will be the final judge. Sure, I have my own personal judgments about the person, I wouldn't generally trust the person very far, but still, on issues of religion, I say leave it to God. And it is religion because it deals with the idea of when does actual life begin, you could say at conception but others could take it ever further to where you are considered a murderer for dropping sperm on the bed sheets.

Sure He'll be the final judge, but does that excuse what they've done here and now? Do you think God did not appoint judges to deal w/ the here and now (Romans 13:1)? The problem w/ the American justice system is that the punishment never fits the crime. If the punishment fit the crime, you would see a different society. One that lives in fear/respect of God instead of one that mocks Him.

If life did not begin at conception, there would be no need for abortion. But those who are responsible for abortion know full well when a woman gets pregnant, a child is coming. Therefore, they are murderers.

Too many times we let personal feelings cloud our judgment when we know of people close to us that have done this terrible thing. It doesn't change the fact that abortion is murder.

 

[rcorlew]

If you do not think that God creates a life in the womb the you are not reading the same Bible I am. I will take you way back to the stuff most people skip, where the meat is.

Gen 29:31 And Jehovah saw that Leah was hated. And He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Jdg 13:5 For, behold, you are pregnant and bearing a son. And a razor shall not go on his head, for the boy shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb. And he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Job 10:18 Why then did You bring me from the womb? I would have died, and no eye seen me.

Job 31:15 Did not He who made me in the belly make him? And did not One shape us in the womb?

Psa 22:9 For You are He, My Taker from the womb; causing Me to trust on My mother's breasts.

Psa 22:10 I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother's belly, You are My God.

Psa 127:3 Behold! Children are an inheritance of Jehovah; the fruit of the womb is His reward.

Psa 139:13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You wove me in the womb of my mother.

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know what is the way of the wind, as the bones in the pregnant woman's womb, even so you do not know the works of God who makes all.

Isa 44:2 So says Jehovah, who made you and formed you from the womb. He helps you. Do not fear, My servant Jacob; and you, Jeshurun whom I have elected.

Isa 49:5 And now, says Jehovah who formed Me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him: Though Israel is not gathered, yet I am honored in the eye of Jehovah, and My God is My strength.

Jer 1:5 I knew you before I formed you in the belly; and before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

To get an abortion is to usurp the plan that God has for the life within the mother.

I just cannot understand how this seems ambiguous or unclear, there really is not room for judgment.

 

[Texas Lynn]

If you do not think that God creates a life in the womb the you are not reading the same Bible I am. I will take you way back to the stuff most people skip, where the meat is.

Gen 29:31 And Jehovah saw that Leah was hated. And He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Jdg 13:5 For, behold, you are pregnant and bearing a son. And a razor shall not go on his head, for the boy shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb. And he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Job 10:18 Why then did You bring me from the womb? I would have died, and no eye seen me.

Job 31:15 Did not He who made me in the belly make him? And did not One shape us in the womb?

Psa 22:9 For You are He, My Taker from the womb; causing Me to trust on My mother's breasts.

Psa 22:10 I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother's belly, You are My God.

Psa 127:3 Behold! Children are an inheritance of Jehovah; the fruit of the womb is His reward.

Psa 139:13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You wove me in the womb of my mother.

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know what is the way of the wind, as the bones in the pregnant woman's womb, even so you do not know the works of God who makes all.

Isa 44:2 So says Jehovah, who made you and formed you from the womb. He helps you. Do not fear, My servant Jacob; and you, Jeshurun whom I have elected.

Isa 49:5 And now, says Jehovah who formed Me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him: Though Israel is not gathered, yet I am honored in the eye of Jehovah, and My God is My strength.

Jer 1:5 I knew you before I formed you in the belly; and before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

To get an abortion is to usurp the plan that God has for the life within the mother.

I just cannot understand how this seems ambiguous or unclear, there really is not room for judgment.

No "thou shalt not have an abortion" anywhere there.

 

[ebia]

If you do not think that God creates a life in the womb the you are not reading the same Bible I am.

Who are you talking to? I'm not sure who if anyone has said that.

 

[rcorlew]

How is abortion following the two commandments laid down by Jesus?

Mat 22:36 "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and the most important commandment.
Mat 22:39 The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'
Mat 22:40 The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Would you do to yourself what happens in an abortion?

Rom 12:5 In the same way, though we are many, we are one body in union with Christ, and we are all joined to each other as different parts of one body.

1Co 6:19 Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God;

I fall short myself, but to not know that what you do to yourself as a believer you are doing to the body of Christ, I would not want that on judgment day.

 

[ebia]

How is abortion following the two commandments laid down by Jesus?

Mat 22:36 "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and the most important commandment.
Mat 22:39 The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'
Mat 22:40 The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Would you do to yourself what happens in an abortion?

Rom 12:5 In the same way, though we are many, we are one body in union with Christ, and we are all joined to each other as different parts of one body.

1Co 6:19 Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God;

I fall short myself, but to not know that what you do to yourself as a believer you are doing to the body of Christ, I would not want that on judgment day.

Could you please make it clear in your posts who you are responding to?

 

[lux et lex]

how can you call that a red herring? It has direct bearing on this
subject.

If you can't tell us when a life attains a soul, then you can't know
when it's literally considered "a living soul" can you?
& judging from scripture, God knows us BEFORE we're born and
knits us in the womb; creating our innermost parts.

That's no red herring at all. I'd be real worried about pushing abortion
when you can't know such an important detail (namely as a self proclaiming Christian)

Well I still think it's a red herring, but I'll bite.

when does one get a soul? I have no idea. I don't think it's important to know when, and really holds nothing with regard to my thoughts on abortion. I have been taught that your soul is comprised of your thoughts and personality. So if I had to make a guess as to when one gets a soul, I'd say it's when cognition begins, which is typically around 30 weeks of gestation.

 

[Nadiine]

No "thou shalt not have an abortion" anywhere there.

it didn't EXIST back then either -

Might as well expect to see OT commands on IVF and
"the mornng after pill" too. :o

Murder covers wrongfully taking life that does not belong
to us. That covers ALL the abortion demands where
there is no life at risk (that means genuine life and death emergency -
not some apathetic speculation of possibility as an excuse to have it done)
and it's completely unecessary outside personal selfish motive,
which ARE the majority of abortions.
The majority are simply getting rid of the consequence of their
sin.

& even then, God will judge the fornication they continue in as
well. Just tack on murder to immorality. Not good.

 

[god's_pawn]

No "thou shalt not have an abortion" anywhere there.

that is a rather shameful excuse to permit something. the Bible never says "it's okay to have abortions" either. therefore by your own logic we cannot have abortions. there are other things (such as drugs) that are not specifically condemned in the Bible. are they to be consider ok just because the Bible doesn't say no? reading between the lines is just as applicable to understanding the Bible as it is to understand a subplot in a book or movie.

 

[rcorlew]

To those who are pro choice I pose a question, you might at first scoff at the question, but to those who truly do seek the truth, and even those who like to argue, I ask this of you.

How many people, I am assuming all of us have, seen the warning labels on electrical items like Televisions, Computers, Stereos, that say "Disconnect power before servicing", and yet at no time does it ever implicitly state that I cannot then plug the device back in before starting to work on it, it merely states that i should unplug it first, but not that it has to remain unplugged during the whole procedure right?

 

[god's_pawn]

To those who are pro choice I pose a question, you might at first scoff at the question, but to those who truly do seek the truth, and even those who like to argue, I ask this of you.

How many people, I am assuming all of us have, seen the warning labels on electrical items like Televisions, Computers, Stereos, that say "Disconnect power before servicing", and yet at no time does it ever implicitly state that I cannot then plug the device back in before starting to work on it, it merely states that i should unplug it first, but not that it has to remain unplugged during the whole procedure right?

i think it's one of those "read between the lines" deals. you can take it extremely litterally to make it allow what you want it to allow, but reading between the lines could very well save you life.

forgive me though, but i fail to see how this relates to the thread. was your question in reply to any specific post?

 

[rcorlew]

Yes it relates quite well so please hear this out.

Are you saying that you should take all the pointers saying that you need to disconnect the power first and are not told that you can the immediately plug the device back in before beginning work, it would be best to err on the side of caution even though you are not specifically told to do so?