Does God love everyone?

[timothyu]

Consider that we are to hate ourselves, for we live contrary to the will of God. Thus we reject that of ourselves which is contrary.

 

[coffee4u]

Consider that we are to hate ourselves, for we live contrary to the will of God. Thus we reject that of ourselves which is contrary.

Yes.
God doesn't mean simply go around despising yourself but rather hate your sin, reject that in yourself that is not of faith.
Luke 11
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

For at the same time we are still evil we are also called children of God
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
This 'hatred' is deep and spiritually complex not some surface human hate that we feel when someone robs our house.

 

[Clare73]

To bionically demonstrate my assertion all I simply have to do is provide the Scriptures I already have.

I can keep repeating Romans 11:32 if you want.

And none of that is what I'm arguing against.

"'I have loved you,' says the LORD. But you say, 'How have You loved us?' 'Is not Esau Jacob's brother?' declares the LORD. 'Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.' If Edom says, 'We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,' the LORD of hosts says, 'They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called "the wicked country," and "the people with whom the LORD is angry forever."' Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, 'Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!'" - Malachi 1:2-5

It may benefit our understanding slightly if we look into what the prophet was talking about. "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" has nothing to do with the brothers, it goes back to Covenant. God's faithfulness to Israel rather than Edom.

Paul delicately balances the fact that Jacob was chosen, while Esau was not within this context:

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done

nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" - Romans 9:6-13
Paul is talking about his unbelieving kinsmen (see also Romans 9:1-5); that merely being Abraham's descendent, merely being Jacob's descendent, doesn't mean anything without faith in Christ.

Thanks. . .looks like I missed this one.

In vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel in Romans 9, Paul demonstrates that
not all Israel is Israel, that throughout Israel's history God has operated in a pattern of sovereign separation/choice:

1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,

2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob, and

3) separation again (belief and unbelief--but fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant),
God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

In the exercise of his absolute sovereignty in the disposition of men (above),
God fails neither in his promise to Israel (fulfilled in a remnant),
nor in his purpose of the gospel; i.e., the offer of salvation to the world.

So what's the problem with the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposing of men?

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Is it unjust that though there be those who are the offspring of Abraham (through Jacob) of the flesh who, nevertheless, have been cut off? (as we shall see later in regard to the olive tree and the natural branches). Paul argues that no, of course God isn't unjust in this, for God has mercy and compassion on whomever He will have mercy and compassion. "So it depends not on human will or effort, but on God who has mercy".

Pharaoh famously, in the Exodus, is said to have had his heart hardened by God against the Israelites, ultimately leading to the 10 plagues.

God used Pharaoh to demonstrate his mercy to Israel. So if through God's purposes Pharaoh's stubbornness and hardness can be used to display God's power, and ultimately His mercy to Jacob--which, ultimately, is in Christ, for the world.

Paul continues,

"As indeed he says in Hosea,

'Those who were not my people I will call "my people,"
and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved."'
'And in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not my people,"
there they will be called "sons of the living God."'


And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.' And as Isaiah predicted,

'If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.'"

God is not unjust if unbelieving Israel turns away and throws away their birthright;
nor it is unjust if God by His grace calls Gentiles to Himself and makes them children of the promise.

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." - Romans 9:30-33, Romans 10:1-4

Israel's (according to the flesh) rejection of Christ among the unbelieving Jews was not the end for them, but rather we shall see, their rejection and hardness of heart shall be to demonstrate God's mercy and judgment--for the calling and inclusion of the Gentiles.

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?’"' (that is, to bring Christ down) 'or "Who will descend into the abyss?"' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:5-13

All who call on the name of the Lord, Jew or Gentile, shall be saved (such is the mercy of God).

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

'Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.'


But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

'I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.'


Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

'I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.'


But of Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'" - Romans 10:14-21

It is the Gospel, proclaimed by the Apostles of Christ (and His Church), that gives faith, creates faith. Not that all have received it in faith (there are those who do not, and seemingly will not believe). God will make Israel jealous, He will come to a people who did not know Him and will make them His.

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.' But what is God's reply to him? 'I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:1-6

So we've been through Paul talking about how God had chosen Jacob, and not Esau; and yet just being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of the promise; those who have turned away will, in their hardness of heart, still declare God's mercy for He shall mercifully choose a people that did not know Him--the Gentiles. So that Jew and Gentile, on the basis of faith, shall be justified. Does this mean God has turned His face away from Israel? Absolutely not, of course not. There is, the Apostle says, a remnant. Faithful Jewish believers in Jesus.

But he keeps going still,

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

'God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.'


And David says,

'Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.'" - Romans 11:7-10

So we see here that the remnant obtained it, but concerning those of hardened heart the above is said. Let's keep going,

"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.


But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." - Romans 11:11-25

Well this is interesting, "did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!" and "if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

See here the mercy of God, the natural branches who are pruned away, and the wild branches that are grafted on, and yet, those same wild branches can also be removed and the natural pruned branches can be restored.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

'The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob';
'and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.'


As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." - Romans 11:25-32

The hardening, which has served for the purpose of God to demonstrate His power and mercy, is apparently only temporary; and while at present there is antagonism between unbelieving Jews and believing Jews and Gentiles, they are nevertheless still what they were from the beginning, those to whom came the covenants, the promises, the patriarchs, the prophets, etc. "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

So we who have believed have obtained mercy, who were formerly in disobedience, whether Jew or Gentile.

And they, who are in their unbelief and hardness of heart, they too shall be given mercy.

For when God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" He intends to have mercy on all, to show forth His compassion upon all. Jew and Gentile alike.

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

'For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?'
'Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?'


For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." - Romans 11:33-36

The Apostle, having spoken of such deep mysteries of God's mercy can do nothing here, but stand in awe of the Gospel and God's grace and mercy. God will do what God will do--and what He will do is have mercy on sinners.



Absolutely. And taking Romans 9 out of context disrupts the whole point Paul is making. It's his thesis statement: "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written 'The just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:16-17).

This has nothing to do with God's sovereign choices; it's about God's grace and mercy in Jesus Christ.

By reading this through the lens of "God is sovereign" rather than the appropriate "God saves sinners through Jesus Christ" one turns away from the Theology of the Cross to a theology of glory.

Crux probat omnia

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks. . .looks like I missed this one.

In vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel in Romans 9, Paul demonstrates that
not all Israel is Israel, that throughout Israel's history God has operated in a pattern of sovereign separation/choice:

1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,

2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob, and

3) separation again (belief and unbelief--but fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant),
God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

In the exercise of his absolute sovereignty in the disposition of men (above),
God fails neither in his promise to Israel (fulfilled in a remnant),
nor in his purpose of the gospel; i.e., the offer of salvation to the world.

So what's the problem with the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposing of men?

Did God reject Israel? No. It is not God's rejection of Israel; it is the rejection of some in Israel of God by their rejection of the Gospel; the natural branches of the tree were cut off not by God sovereignly choosing that they should not believe and therefore be rejected by Him from all eternity; but they have separated themselves from the Household of God.

God isn't the one who rejects, man is. God, in His sovereignty, has chosen to love the world unconditionally through Christ and to rescue it--all of it.

Predestination only extends to the Elect. God has predestined us in Christ. He did not predestine anyone to be outside of Christ. For it is the will and desire of God that ALL be saved. Not "all of the elect", but all. Meaning all. No exceptions.

If God had rejected them, then the Apostle could not say what he says in Romans 11:23-24

"And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."

See how the elect of the nations, wild branches grafted onto the tree cannot become lazy and arrogant; for they can be cut off just like the natural branches were; and those natural branches that were cut off can be restored again.

It is not God who has rejected the unbelieving, but the unbelieving who reject God. And their rejection does not have to be forever--the call of repentance and the going forth of the Gospel in proclamation is for the unbelieving.

Being elect does not mean we can't fall away (we can); and being an unbeliever doesn't mean God's grace cannot reach them, because it is precisely the power and grace of God through His Gospel to create faith where there is no faith (Romans 4:17).

I believe that God is sovereign, but for me that means His sovereign love, and His intention of grace toward all in Jesus Christ. We do not serve a capricious petty tyrant who picks and chooses who will and will not be saved. Ours is the God who comes down and shows Himself in Jesus Christ.

Christ, not philosophy, is the Author and Finisher of our faith--begin with Christ, all theology must begin with Christ. Even as all theology ends with--finds its end, its purpose, its goal in--Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Did God reject Israel? No.
It is not God's rejection of Israel;

Paul speaks in terms of "Israel" (Romans 11:11, Romans 11:25, 26), whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, the church. . . IF they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which has gone on for 2,000 years now, and counting.

it is the rejection of some in Israel of God by their rejection of the Gospel;

Only a remnant believes (Romans 11:5), it is rejection of the vast majority of Israel by their rejection of the gospel, and which continues to go on as we speak.

the natural branches of the tree were cut off not by God sovereignly choosing that they should not believe and therefore be rejected by Him from all eternity; but they have separated themselves from the Household of God.
God isn't the one who rejects, man is. God, in His sovereignty, has chosen to love the world unconditionally through Christ and to rescue it--all of it.
Predestination only extends to the Elect. God has predestined us in Christ.
He did not predestine anyone to be outside of Christ.

Have you thought about how that works?

Are there not only two possibilities, either in or out of Christ.
If you have not been predestined to be "in," then are you not "predestined" to the only other choice, i.e., to be "out?"

For it is the will and desire of God that ALL be saved. Not "all of the elect", but all. Meaning all. No exceptions.

That being written to the elect about the elect, who were questioning why it was taking so long for Christ to return and the apostle's answer being that God was waiting for "all" (of them, the elect) to be saved, to come in.

If God had rejected them,

God has cut them off the one olive tree of the church, to which it is their destiny to be grafted back in IF they do not continue in unbelief. (Romans 11:23)

then the Apostle could not say what he says in Romans 11:23-24

"And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."

See how the elect of the nations, wild branches grafted onto the tree cannot become lazy and arrogant; for they can be cut off just like the natural branches were; and those natural branches that were cut off can be restored again.

It is not God who has rejected the unbelieving, but the unbelieving who reject God. And their rejection does not have to be forever--the call of repentance and the going forth of the Gospel in proclamation is for the unbelieving.

Being elect does not mean we can't fall away (we can); and being an unbeliever doesn't mean God's grace cannot reach them, because it is precisely the power and grace of God through His Gospel to create faith where there is no faith (Romans 4:17).

I believe that God is sovereign, but for me that means His sovereign love, and His intention of grace toward all in Jesus Christ. We do not serve a capricious petty tyrant who picks and chooses who will and will not be saved. Ours is the God who comes down and shows Himself in Jesus Christ.

Christ, not philosophy, is the Author and Finisher of our faith--begin with Christ, all theology must begin with Christ. Even as all theology ends with--finds its end, its purpose, its goal in--Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zoidar]

Paul speaks in terms of "Israel" (Romans 11:11, Romans 11:25, 26), whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, the church. . . IF they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which has gone on for 2,000 years now, and counting.

Do you believe then that the whole Gentile world of believers can be cut off?

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
— Romans 11:20-21

 

[Clare73]

Do you believe then that the whole Gentile world of believers can be cut off?

Only counterfeit faith falls away.

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
— Romans 11:20-21

Correct. . .God does not spare unbelief.

 

[zoidar]

Only counterfeit faith falls away.

Correct. . .God does not spare unbelief.

In Romans 11:20-21 Paul speaks about the Jews, and the believers in Christ. Why would I who stand by faith in Christ fear, if I can't fall away?

you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Are you saying not all those who stand by faith in Christ were grafted in?

But v. 17 and 19 says:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
— Romans 11:17

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
— Romans 11:19

 

[timothyu]

Correct. . .God does not spare unbelief.

How can He? Square flesh does not fit into the round Kingdom. The Kingdom is not made for those solely of the flesh, the worship of self.

 

[Clare73]

In Romans 11:20-21 Paul speaks about the Jews, and the believers in Christ. Why would I who stand by faith in Christ fear, if I can't fall away?

Warnings are one of the many ways the Holy Spirit preserves believers, which warnings counterfeit faith ignores and does not persevere.

you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Are you saying not all those who stand by faith in Christ were grafted in?

Wheat and tares?
In the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. . .

But v. 19 says:

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
— Romans 11:19

 

[zoidar]

Warnings are one of the many ways the Holy Spirit preserves believers, which warnings counterfeit faith ignores and does not persevere.

Wheat and tares?
In the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. . .

You mean even you are grafted in, you might not be of the kingdom, just in the kingdom?

 

[timothyu]

Outside the city (but still in the kingdom)

REV; 22 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Clare73]

You mean even you are grafted in, you might not be of the kingdom, just in the kingdom?

For how many centuries were how many unbelieving Jews part of the one olive tree of "God's people"?

How many "Christians" in the (visible) church, the one olive tree, are not saved?
Wheat and tares. . .in the church, to be left there and not removed until the Judgment.

 

[zoidar]

For how many centuries were how many unbelieving Jews part of the one olive tree of "God's people"?

How many "Christians" in the (visible) church, the one olive tree, are not saved?
Wheat and tares. . .in the church, to be left there and not removed until the Judgment.

I don't believe Romans 11 is a comparison between the Jews as a people of God and the "church" as an organisation.

I believe the comparison is between God's people (of the OC) - the Jews , and the true church, God's people (of the NC) - those in Christ, connected to him through the Holy Spirit.

I can't see tares being partakes of the rich root of the olive tree. Oil I see as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. So no I don't see the oil tree as the "visible church", but God or Christ if you will.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
— Romans 11:17

 

[Clare73]

I don't believe Romans 11 is a comparison between the Jews as a people of God and the "church" as an organisation.

I believe the comparison is between God's people - the Jews, and the true church, God's people - those in Christ, connected to him through the Holy Spirit.

I don't see it as a comparison of anything, I see it as a statement of facts:
1) unbelieving Israel has been cut off the one olive tree of God's people, and the believing Gentiles have been grafted in as God's people,
2) Israel will be grafted back in again if she does not persist in unbelief.

It is the facts about the born again and the not born again.

Israel is on the same footing as all mankind. . .entrance is only by trust on and faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24), just as by faith righteousness was credit/imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

I can't see tares being partakes of the rich root of the olive tree. Oil I see as a symbol for the Holy Spirit.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
— Romans 11:17

 

[zoidar]

I don't see it as a comparison of anything, I see it as a statement of facts:
1) unbelieving Israel has been cut off the one olive tree of God's people, and the believing Gentiles have been grafted in as God's people,

Yes, but you say some of the believing Gentiles grafted in are tares. That's where I disagree. Tares believe they are grafted in, but never were. They were never God's people no matter how much Christian profession they have.

 

[timothyu]

I believe the comparison is between God's people (of the OC) - the Jews ,

Actually the Jews were but one of twelve tribes/families in the House of Israel (the Hebrew people).

 

[Clare73]

Yes, but you say some of the believing Gentiles grafted in are tares. That's where I disagree. Tares believe they are grafted in, but never were. They were never God's people no matter how much Christian profession they have.

It depends if you are talking about the professing church, which includes tares,

or the born again church, which does not include tares.

Was all Israel the one olive tree of God's people over the years, or just a remnant of them?

 

[zoidar]

It depends if you are talking about the professing church, which includes tares,

or the born again church, which does not include tares.

I'm talking about the olive tree (with it's branches) in Romans 11. Which do you think it represents?

 

[Clare73]

I'm talking about the olive tree in Romans 11. Which do you think it represents?

I have to distinguish when I talk about it.

I'm inclined to think of it as the born again.
But if that were true, then why were some cut off?

It's the same with the vine.