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According to your follow up questions your interest only goes as far as your current interpretation of "real" Christianity allows you to argue a specific point.Drich0150, please. Your words echo ironically in my ears. I asked you, as christians, a question - regarding the nature of God - in order for me to explore Christianity through real christians.
Again your exploration of Why we believe as we do, seems to be limited to one specific dimension of the topic. You have turned a blind eye to anything you are not willing to argue.What you believe interests me, but even more so why you believe what you believe.
To which yes or no response are you referring?Indeed, it was a closed question. But a simple yes/no answer does not satisfy me.
The reason you got the reply you did is because you are selectively sniping the answers that you can deconstruct with your general understanding of "free will." While ignoring anything that does not fit the argument you have prepared yourself to argue or "explore."I then ask you (the people on this forum in general) why you answered the way you did, and this is the reply I get from you, drich.
Are you even responding to the same post that i am referring to? When I directly confronted your definitions of freewill all interest in the subject matter seemed to be lost until someone else made a comment that fit your favored definition of the term. Your "interest" in our beliefs seem to go only as far as you can turn our beliefs on us. You seem to have little interest in a understanding that has you questioning you own interpretations of this subject matter. This is beyond hypocritical behavior, and this is exactly why I said your efforts more closely resembled a witch hunt more closely than what ever it is you have fooled yourself into believing you are doing.If exploration of Christianity stops at swallowing whatever you answer without further questioning of how/why and so on, then it is you that do not allow yourself thought outside a very specific set of parameters. If you can't provide reasons for you belief, than what do you support your beliefs on? That's all I ask.
Selectively deconstructing certain arguments, and pretending others were over looked... Yes that is rude.You ask me about my behavior. I ask you, have I been rude?
You insult those who are making an effort to address your question, by picking apart answers and not addressing them as a whole.Have I insulted you?
This entire post was a personal judgment in that you deemed or judged the situation necessary to turn my topic of conversation from comparing the biblical definition of free will with your definition of free will, into a what looks like a personal assault, which affords you the right to question or JUDGE my approach to your actions here. So yes you have judge in this thread!Have I been judging in any way in this thread?
Perhaps you are confused to the nature of this specific area of the forum. Although it is encouraged for the OP to ask questions, this is not a debate forum. Nor is this a place to force Christianity to accept a secular understanding of your topic of choice. This is a place where non believers come to Explore Christianity. You ask us questions and We give You answers.. Kinda like an interactive Monologue.If you prefer a monologue - you talking without listening to response - then why are you even on this forum?
I simply pointed out that your actions more closely resemble a witch hunt rather than a "polite dialog." I never said you are burning people for being a witch.If you think that a polite, reasonable dialog is a 'witch hunt', how can you even function as a human being together with other people with different beliefs than yours?
One does not have to be in the minority to be persecuted, your actions prove this to be true.It's funny hearing about persecution from a follower of the hands down largest religion on the planet.
If my actions are considered belittling, yet they accurately portray your actions here in this thread, then what does that say about your actions?Your and certain other's belittling attitude soils this thread. Let us please adopt a polite tone of voice, where we can talk about things on equal and fair ground. Thank you, and sorry for the understandably, albeit necessary, less-than-pleasant reply.
You are demonstrating that you are not here to by "exploring Christianity". Whenever I present evidence of the attributes of God that quash your idea of human free will, you retort with these kinds of human-centred views of God.By Ozpen:
Now again, there is the problem. Let's say God acts on the tenets justice, holiness and righteousness. Did God decide to favor these values above others? Why did he choose them? Could he have had chosen any other values just as likely? If not, why not?
By DCJazz:
In what way is free-will a finite definition of anything? Either we can describe God in our own terminology, or we can't. If we can, and we do, then my question whether or not God possesses free will is perfectly valid and should be treated as such. If not, then we cannot give God attributes like just, holy and righteous. Indeed, we cannot know or describe God at all.
God is sovern and doesn't need anybody.
Of course He has free will. He is the only one who has permanent free will and is not under predetermination (God's Omniscience does not apply to His decisions.
We can only persume that the nature of God dictates His own will. Because Who could bind the will of God other than God Himself? So any action He takes is of His own accord.
God is absolutely just, holy, righteous & truthful. They are attributes that dictate the content of His will!
If "our" definition of "Free will" will not allow for a logically possible explanation of it then perhaps it is your definition of "freewill" that is in error.
God is beyond the catagories of "free will" and "determinism".
You are using a human category, "free will". How can the Sovereign Lord of the universe have free will? As an atheist, you are using the wrong category.
But we are not talking about free-will that is anything like human free-will.
Free will is defined differently by different people. Logically, there seems to be only three basic views on this topic: (1) Self-caused actions that can be labelled, self-determinism; (2) Acts caused by another person (determinism); and (3) Acts that have no cause whatsoever (indeterminism). Indeterminism violates the law of causality, meaning that every event has a cause. Determinism violates the concept of free will since any moral agent is not causing or is responsible for his or her own actions.
Oshulten-
We Christians believe that God originated all that exists today, including free will. So to ask if free will controls his own activity is like saying that Michaelangelo is The Pieta instead of being the artist who brought it into existence.
Is God a personal God, with emotions as well as intellect? Yes, he is. But both his emotions and his intellect are on a far higher plane than ours. In his encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, Pope Pius XI wrote of God's being a personal God rather than a 'thing' or an icon. As The Author of Justice he is to be answered to, and as The Epitome of Mercy he is to be approached with gratitude.
I hope this helps you better understand us. God bless-
Okey, let me try to define freewill. Actions not influenced by other forces. Meaning that freewill can only exist outside of a deterministic universe. So when God take action, does he always do it for specific reasons - like his own emotions, the condition of humanity or for the sake or order? Or are his actions taken arbitrarily, based on nothing but random whims?
Either extreme you approach the situation from, God does not seem to be excepted from these limitations of any kind of will.
I read the text put forth by Christos; I'm sorry to say I didn't quite grasp it.
Then what kind of free-will is it?
I have read parts of both the Old Testament and the New Testamente. It describes God's actions and speech, and his followers and enemies reaction and relation to him. From the scriptures I understand one can make a range of interpretations about the nature of God. However, I don't want to be caught up in a quote-war here. Could someone please sum up the essentials?
Again, why doesn't our definition of free-will apply to God? Where I stand now, I find it difficult to see any free-will logically possible. We have causality (determinism) and chance (indeterminism), but simply no third option. There's no magic involved. What is free-will to you?
Hi Christians!
Do you think that God has his own free will? He can certainly act out on whatever he wants to do. But why does he want certain things? Is he the one to decide, or is he a helpless victim of his own needs and whims?
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