Does God hate all who do iniquity?

[Foghorn]

Psalm 5
NASB5The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;

ESV The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

KJV 5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I think the answer is pretty plain to see. Yes.

Since the answer is, obviously, yes. Why do some go preaching to everyone, "Jesus loves you"?

Yes, God does love the elect, but how do you know you are talking to an elect? You don't!

So, in doing so you are talking to the non-elect also, so why are you lieing to them?
Curious, who can show me a passage in God's word where an apostle ran around saying, "Smile, Jesus loves you?"

Or, "rejoice, Jesus loves you all!"

 

[ViaCrucis]

John 3:16

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

John 3:16

-CryptoLutheran

John 3:16?

Interesting, care to explain?

 

[ViaCrucis]

John 3:16?

Interesting, care to explain?

God loves the whole world. That's everyone.

If God didn't love the wicked that would exclude you and I. Indeed, Christ says God is kind to the thankless and the wicked, and that He sends His rain the righteous and unrighteous alike. That's not just the elect, that's everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

God loves the whole world. That's everyone.

According to you. But scripture says: Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

If God didn't love the wicked that would exclude you and I. Indeed, Christ says God is kind to the thankless and the wicked, and that He sends His rain the righteous and unrighteous alike. That's not just the elect, that's everyone.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The world meaning, mankind in it's generality. Out of mankind, which being subject to eternal perdition through sin,..... God out of His sovereign and absolute good pleasure, saved His elect from it, whom He has taken from every tribe, tongue and nation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to you. But scripture says: Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Both in Malachi and in Paul's quoting of it it is in reference to how God chose Jacob, but not Esau; i.e the Israelites were chosen as the people of God's Covenant, not the Edomites. It, of course, has nothing whatsoever with whom God loves; after all the Apostle later says that all have been consigned to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The world meaning, mankind in it's generality. Out of mankind, which being subject to eternal perdition through sin,..... God out of His sovereign and absolute good pleasure, saved His elect from it, whom He has taken from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Agreed.

The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace.

Yet it remains that God loves all, and desires that all be saved and none should perish. For Christ died for all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

Agreed.

The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace.

Yet it remains that God loves all, and desires that all be saved and none should perish. For Christ died for all.

-CryptoLutheran

So, let me get this straight.

You believe Christ died for all, meaning all of Adam's posterity; and out of all, all those whom He died for (all of Adam's posterity), He chose some (the elect) by His good pleasure to be adopted as His children?

Now if Christ died for all, paid the penalty, became sin and a curse for all, what happens to the rest of Adam's posterity whom He didn't choose by His good pleasure?

 

[Foghorn]

Both in Malachi and in Paul's quoting of it it is in reference to how God chose Jacob, but not Esau; i.e the Israelites were chosen as the people of God's Covenant, not the Edomites. It, of course, has nothing whatsoever with whom God loves; after all the Apostle later says that all have been consigned to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all.

Ok, lets have a look, a little deeper.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


Mal 1:2-3 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob

God is saying, "consider the principle effect of My love," in His mere grace, God has chosen these to be His people, "in their father Jacob."
All God's benefits have come upon them; perseverance, deliverance from captivity and re-establishment; where as, the Edomites, who came from Esau, have not been partakers. Pretty obvious......


3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
God has given Esau no part in His grace and left him as a sinner and corrupt under His wrath and judgement. God also shows this in his destruction: I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.


Considering this look again at: Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[Foghorn]

It, of course, has nothing whatsoever with whom God loves; after all the Apostle later says that all have been consigned to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all.

Would you please explain this to me in context please? Thanks.
Respectfully, I personally believe, your assuming something that just ain't there. If I am wrong, I would like to know.


I just see a partial hardening of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles (in bold).
In verse 1, it does not teach about who God loves and does not love, but it is talking about His people (in general).
Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!

Romans 1:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, let me get this straight.

You believe Christ died for all, meaning all of Adam's posterity; and out of all, all those whom He died for (all of Adam's posterity), He chose some (the elect) by His good pleasure to be adopted as His children?

Now if Christ died for all, paid the penalty, became sin and a curse for all, what happens to the rest of Adam's posterity whom He didn't choose by His good pleasure?

The question can be rephrased, "Why then are some saved and not others?".

That's the Crux Theologorum. It's not answerable without denying the word of Scripture. Ergo why both Calvinism and Arminianism fails.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

The question can be rephrased, "Why then are some saved and not others?".

Why are you avoiding my question?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Would you please answer the question?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would you please explain this to me in context please? Thanks.
Respectfully, I personally believe, your assuming something that just ain't there. If I am wrong, I would like to know.


I just see a partial hardening of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles (in bold).
In verse 1, it does not teach about who God loves and does not love, but it is talking about His people (in general).
Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!

Romans 1:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

That's part of the entire context of Romans 9-11 (and plays into the central themes of the Apostle's letter).

Paul's use of Malachi makes no sense except in light of the fact that, ultimately, whether Jew or Gentile all are disobedient and God has mercy on all.

Romans weaves back and forth between Jewish and Gentile disobedience, the whole thrust is God's gracious acceptance of Jew and Gentile together through Christ.

Jacob and Esau are patronyms describing Israel and Edom, not the specific persons of Jacob and Esau. Jacob is to the Israelites as Esau is to the Edomites. That's the context of Malachi, and reflects St. Paul's use of it in Romans. Namely, of God's choosing of the Jews to be His people. Yes the Apostle goes on through Romans 9, but he doesn't reach the climax of his thesis in these chapters until Romans 11, which culminates in that God consigned all to disobedience so that He might have mercy on all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why are you avoiding my question?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Would you please answer the question?

Then let me answer your question directly concerning the non-elect. God desires that they be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

That's part of the entire context of Romans 9-11 (and plays into the central themes of the Apostle's letter).

Paul's use of Malachi makes no sense except in light of the fact that, ultimately, whether Jew or Gentile all are disobedient and God has mercy on all.

Romans weaves back and forth between Jewish and Gentile disobedience, the whole thrust is God's gracious acceptance of Jew and Gentile together through Christ.

Also, the reason to go back and forth between the Jews and Gentiles, is to show one cannot complain about God's justice and the other cannot be prideful. They both are under the same rule, and whoever is delivered, it is by mere grace and according to God's choice. This letter was written to establish their minds in the leading principles of the gospel. The letter, shows that both Jews and gentiles are sinful that they cannot possibly be justified by God of their own works. It teaches how God's free grace reigns through Christ's righteousness, to the justification of the worst sinners. The letter points out the rejection of the Jews because of their unbelief, and the calling of the gentiles by the gospel, without any regard to anything good they might do or have done.

Jacob and Esau are patronyms describing Israel and Edom, not the specific persons of Jacob and Esau. Jacob is to the Israelites as Esau is to the Edomites.

Well which is it then?

First you say this: "The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace."

Now you say this: "Jacob and Esau are patronyms describing Israel and Edom, not the specific persons of Jacob and Esau. Jacob is to the Israelites as Esau is to the Edomites."

That's the context of Malachi, and reflects St. Paul's use of it in Romans. Namely, of God's choosing of the Jews to be His people. Yes the Apostle goes on through Romans 9, but he doesn't reach the climax of his thesis in these chapters until Romans 11, which culminates in that God consigned all to disobedience so that He might have mercy on all.

The climax of it all is God's choice in election.

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[Foghorn]

Then let me answer your question directly concerning the non-elect. God desires that they be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

Then why did you say this?

"You said:The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace."

Isn't His desire shown in His work to fulfill His good pleasure?

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

If He desires, as you say, that the non-elect are saved, then why does He not work in them in the way He works in the elect?

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Eph 1:11.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then why did you say this?

"You said:The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace."

Isn't His desire shown in His work to fulfill His good pleasure?

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

Agreed.

If He desires, as you say, that the non-elect are saved, then why does He not work in them in the way He works in the elect?

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Eph 1:11.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10.

We preach the Gospel, and the Word goes forth and effects what God has promised.

The one who resists the Word can blame only himself.

The one who receives the Word has only God to thank, for he could not have belived had not faith been produced in Him, given from God, according to the Word of God.

Let me refer to you again to the Crux Theologorum. We do not speculate or delve into the hidden will of God and answer the unanswerable.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Also, the reason to go back and forth between the Jews and Gentiles, is to show one cannot complain about God's justice and the other cannot be prideful. They both are under the same rule, and whoever is delivered, it is by mere grace and according to God's choice. This letter was written to establish their minds in the leading principles of the gospel. The letter, shows that both Jews and gentiles are sinful that they cannot possibly be justified by God of their own works. It teaches how God's free grace reigns through Christ's righteousness, to the justification of the worst sinners. The letter points out the rejection of the Jews because of their unbelief, and the calling of the gentiles by the gospel, without any regard to anything good they might do or have done.

Well which is it then?

First you say this: "The elect He has chosen by His good pleasure to be adopted as children of His grace."

Now you say this: "Jacob and Esau are patronyms describing Israel and Edom, not the specific persons of Jacob and Esau. Jacob is to the Israelites as Esau is to the Edomites."

It's not either-or.

The climax of it all is God's choice in election.

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Only if you willfully ignore Romans 11.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Foghorn]

Let me refer to you again to the Crux Theologorum. We do not speculate or delve into the hidden will of God and answer the unanswerable.

Ok, so you believe there is some mystery in this that we cannot know - that God works in the non elect unto salvation, even though scripture teaches the opposite?

Is it something that is hidden, or something that many will not accept? Curious.

 

[Foghorn]

Crux Theologorum.

Even though this is considered Lutheran theology, I do not believe Luther Himself wouldn't recognize it. Seems more like Arminianism to me.

 

[Foghorn]

Crux Theologorum.

Curious, did you write this?

Sorry, but I see a lot of error in it. There are also a lot of misunderstandings of Calvinism.

It claims to be Lutheran, but Calvin agreed with Luther on many things pertaining to salvation. This writing is someone elses work. Modern Lutheran.

EDIT} Crux Theologorum, I now see is a Lutheran thing. I see the difference on their focus concerning salvation. So far, I disagree with it, but I find it interesting and will continue to read it.