Does God Exist?

[Belk]

What do you mean by evidence in this case?

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

 

[Colter]

God is natural.

 

[Belk]

God is natural.

Unless God came about as a result of nature I think you are using the phrase incorrectly. My understanding is God stands separate and outside of his creation. Thus the coining of the term Supernatural.

 

[Colter]

Unless God came about as a result of nature I think you are using the phrase incorrectly. My understanding is God stands separate and outside of his creation. Thus the coining of the term Supernatural.

Yes I see, it would be better to say that nature is the habit of God. The laws of nature, of the material universe is the Law of God.

 

[Belk]

Yes I see, it would be better to say that nature is the habit of God. The laws of nature, of the material universe is the Law of God.

That would seem a much better phrasing.

 

[HereIStand]

God is natural.

Good point. In terms of evidence for God, I would see it more as inference that we draw from nature, rather than from formal evidence. To believe formal arguments for God's existence (such as the ones in Aquinas) a person needs to be already inclined to accept them. The same for the formal arguments against God's existence (such as the ones in Kant). A person has to be inclined to accept them in order believe them.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

The Ontological Argument: If God exists, then God exists. Checkmate, atheists.

 

[HereIStand]

The Ontological Argument: If God exists, then God exists. Checkmate, atheists.

The self-applause is deafening.

 

[Desk trauma]

What if God told us He is outside of the observable Universe?

I would respond that such a deity is choosing to conceal its self causing many people to think it's not there and then punishing them for it.

 

[Desk trauma]

And what if said Deity sent a string of Messengers and Prophets to mankind telling them why we were created, what we must do to live a righteous life, and ultimately return to him for final judgement before spending eternity in bliss or torment; what would you say then?

That the deity in question would know how contradictory, unconvincing this string of "prophets" would be and it's making up excuses to torture people for how they were made.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What if God told us He is outside of the observable Universe? The tools used by Scientists would become redundant and you would have to use other methods of observation, probability and reasoning instead.

How would he do that? It would seem rather difficult for something outside of a universe (which is a pretty goofy concept...if you're imagining the "universe" as like a fishbowl then you need to read up on the shape of the universe) to talk to something inside a universe.

Here is a brief description of what God is:

Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.

This doesn't add anything.

"The Absolute GOD.
"Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

This tells me more about what he isn't than what he is.

"None equals Him."

Again, this tells me about what he isn't...not what he is.

From this we can see God is unlike anything we can imagine.

Not really...vague and weak descriptions of what something "isn't" don't really help me understand anything. For example...

I'm currently thinking of a common household item. Here's two things that it isn't...

1. It isn't a spoon.
2. It's not a mop.

Are you any closer to knowing the object I'm thinking of? Do you see now why telling me what god "isn't" is a awful method for describing him?

 

[Desk trauma]

One step at a time. Do you accept there is a good chance of a God existing, and now wish to move onto the Prophets and Messengers?

No, I was responding to your hypothetical.

Studies have shown children know right from wrong.

And?

As humans, we have free will and are free to make our choices in life.

Ah, so your deity is not omnipotent on top of being cruel.

 

[Grim88]

Yes, I just spoke with Him last night... and I still feel His presence this morning.

Your husband??

 

[Desk trauma]

It was in response to your comment, "excuses to torture people for how they were made." The studies show humans decide how they are made. Or did you mean something else?

I was referring to those of us unconvinced by alleged prophets and intrested in physical reality that you're alleging your deity hides from.

do you accept He likely exists, and now reject Him due to the evil you see around you?

No, I don't find your deitys existance likely.

 

[Ana the Ist]

such a being would clearly be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. There would be no issue penetrating the fishbowl which would in reality represent the First Heaven, meaning everything in the known Universe. There are 7 such Heavens, and God is above them all: 14 mins vid

I'm gonna tell you something that you're going to struggle with...there is no "outside of the universe"...it's either infinite or of such a shape that there is no "outside". Those are really the only two options.

On the contrary it sits with logic, God can only be One, otherwise we have a conflict and chaos.

We do have conflict...chaos is a relative term.

I agree, it is a rebuttal to those who worship men as gods.

Not sure why you'd think that.

He is beyond anything we can imagine.

Yet here you are...imagining him.

He lists over 99 names that give descriptions of who He is.

Is one of them "concise"?

In fairness, we are talking about God, not playing a game of guess what. I already stated He is unlike anything we know. Using the same description, my answer to your question would have to be, I have no idea, but whatever it is must be spectacular.

You see my point though, don't you? Telling me about what something isn't doesn't help me understand what it is.

 

[Desk trauma]

Which Prophets have you studied?

I read the biblical writings ascribed to the prophets and many of the unhinged rantings of people trying to apply them to current events. I have read a great deal about Mormonism as well as I find their history very interesting.

You can't see God in your current body. If you could, your soul would immediately exit.

How odd of a deity to set things up like that.

the main reasoning being?

The only supporting evidence of your, and all other, deities being its fan club saying "no really!".

 

[jacks]

I'm sure this discussion will lead to the definitive answer as to whether God exists or not.
Let me sum up:
He does to!
He does not!
Does to!
Does not!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who but God has verified what exists beyond the known Universe?

The problem is that you're still imagining it like it's a fishbowl aren't you? In your mind...if you were somehow travel in a straight line for a long enough time, you think you'd reach some place where the universe ends. That's not how it works.

There are ways to know these things...but are you really interested in knowing? Because I think it's going to be a waste of my time if you just want to clutch at your dogmas.

I know from studying the whole message. It was a reminder to Christians who took a man for worship.

What does that have to do with me or what I'm saying? If you want to take cheap shots at christians, there's plenty of them around to do that with.

I'm here having examined the evidence, the Scripture and concluded there was more than enough evidence to believe without seeing Him for myself.

You listed the evidence and the scripture here as separate things. What is "the evidence" in your mind?

They're not descriptive enough? They become more so, the more one studies.

Since you sound like you think you know...why not just tell me? Spare me the "studying" part....

I see you playing games. Remember He is beyond anything we can visualise, beyond our realm, beyond the Universe and everything we know. What else would you like to know about Him?

I'm not playing games...my concern is with the contradictions in your statements.

You would agree that either something can be known and understood...or it cannot, right? So which is it? Can god be known and understood...or is such a thing impossible?

 

[Ana the Ist]

At least the fishbowl argument won't be used again

Don't feel bad...you're hardly the first person to make that mistake.

 

[Desk trauma]

To read how they were righteous and upright men, I would suggest you take a week or so and do some additional reading if interested?

My reading list is quite full at the moment and works of Islamic apologetics are of little interest to me.

These are temporary bodies and not fit for the real life to come. This life is just a short stepping stone, a test if you like.

Sure.

Don't worry, once we agree the possibility exists of a Creator, I will provide you good evidences.

Once I agree then the evidence, bit backwards.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This universe is within the First Heaven. It takes 500 non Earth Years to get to the next Heaven, and again 500 to the next, and this continues until you reach the Seventh Heaven, God's foot stool is above them all, and then we find His Throne. We don't know if it's a case of travelling in a straight line until we get to outside of the Seven Heavens.

Where are you getting this stuff? More importantly, why would you trust it over the expertise of those who spend their lives studying such things?

Post a link to a paper on the subject, and I'll certainly go an have a read.

lol yeah? You'll give it a "read"? If you ever actually looked into the topic, you'd already know that the mathematics involved are well beyond what you learned in high school. How about you just start here, with a layman's explanation, and get back to me...it's a short read...

What is the Universe Expanding Into? - Universe Today

Universe coming from nothing being a unreasonable position, therefore something made it come into being.

Nonsense. I'm not arguing a "universe" from nothing...

The fine tuning argument.

Which is a poor argument that I doubt you genuinely understand. Along a long enough timeline...any existing possibility becomes sufficiently "miraculous" to the believer.

The complexity of a single cell.

What about it?

The design both within us and around us in nature

Just give me a quick definition of "design" and since you seem to think everything is designed...I'm curious about how you would distinguish it from something "not designed"?

We will come to that once we get past the first hurdle.

What's the first hurdle?

He can not be fully understood, but He has revealed enough using his chosen Prophets, peace be upon them all. If you want to know something specific about Him, please ask.

How did he make the universe? That seems pretty important since you consider it evidence of him.

 

[Desk trauma]

One we establish there is a good chance of a Creator existing, then I'll give you good evidences to identify the correct path to follow.

Why should I believe such a thing exists?

 

[Colter]

Where are you getting this stuff? More importantly, why would you trust it over the expertise of those who spend their lives studying such things?



lol yeah? You'll give it a "read"? If you ever actually looked into the topic, you'd already know that the mathematics involved are well beyond what you learned in high school. How about you just start here, with a layman's explanation, and get back to me...it's a short read...

What is the Universe Expanding Into? - Universe Today





Nonsense. I'm not arguing a "universe" from nothing...



Which is a poor argument that I doubt you genuinely understand. Along a long enough timeline...any existing possibility becomes sufficiently "miraculous" to the believer.




What about it?



Just give me a quick definition of "design" and since you seem to think everything is designed...I'm curious about how you would distinguish it from something "not designed"?



What's the first hurdle?



How did he make the universe? That seems pretty important since you consider it evidence of him.

Why should I believe such a thing exists?

Why should I believe such a thing exists?

So that you can experience the full benefits of Sonship with God; eternal life and endless adventure, discovery and service to others.

 

[Desk trauma]

So that you can experience the full benefits of Sonship with God; eternal life and endless adventure, discovery and service to others.

Notably absent from this reply, a reason to suppose there is such a thing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is revelation from God.

How would you know that?

In summary the Universe has no edge and it's not expanding into something, it's just expanding. Your short article made no mention of any of the other Universes, so not able to explain what lays beyond the 7th Universe.

Well it also says there's no "outside" the universe...so it's a bit of a moot point.

I'm using it as one of my evidences.

How is that? Even if I agree that the universe didn't "come from nothing"...how is that evidence for a god?

We don't have a long enough timeline though do we. We know the Universe started to expand some 14 Billions years ago. To create the right conditions for sustainable life there are some 26 fundamental constants, that by chance alone, would likely have taken longer than the 14 Billion years.

There's a lot of guesswork behind that argument....most of which is based upon some very limited knowledge.

The signature in the cell, complexity of amino acids and dna. 1 short protein corresponds to 150 amino acids.
The dna protein lock has 10 BILLION possible combinations all resulting in gibberish, with one correct code resulting in ONE successful functional protein being created. The longer the molecule, the longer the lock

And?

Much in nature shows clear signs of design

I can't think of anything in nature that doesn't show signs of design.

The fact that we can use math to describe nature isn't really a shock. You forgot to define design in any meaningful way. Maybe it would be easier if I asked, "how do you detect design?"

One we are unlikely to overcome. Establishing the existence of a Creator within reason.

You'll have to tell me what he actually is...not use him as an attempt to fill in gaps in knowledge.

He simply said 'Be' :

There's no universe yet...so there's no air for him to make a sound. Also, I thought we agreed that something cannot come from nothing...

“He (God) is the Originator of the heavens and the earth…” Qur'an 6:101

“Is not He who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the likes of them? Yes; and He is the Knowing Creator. His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.” Qur'an 36:81-82

“And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” Qur'an 51:47

Remember the Bedouin Arab nomads didn't a Hubble telescope in 7th Century Arabia.

Lol who is "we" in that sentence? No offense, but I've read the Koran...and discussed it with muslims. I think arabic is easily the worst language if one wants to be clear. As I've been told...just about every word has a dozen or so contextual meanings...so how many other meanings does the word for "expander" have?

 

[Colter]

Notably absent from this reply, a reason to suppose there is such a thing.

The very fact that you are not the creator is a starting point.