Does God Exist?

[Tinker Grey]

As I understand the argument,

1) I know that reality exists outside of what I can perceive directly with the mind.
2) If reality exists outside the mind to the smallest degree, then it exists to an infinite degree.
3) If it exists to an infinite degree in this world, then it exists in possible worlds.
4) If it exists in possible worlds, then it exists in the actual world.
5) Therefore a being self-existing in infinity exists in the actual world.
6) This being is God.

I don't agree with #2. An infinite degree doesn't mean anything to me. Also, going from reality exist to a self-existing being existing. If reality is the being then all we've said is that if reality exists then reality exists. Tautologically true.

Too, the whole idea that if something is possible it impinges on our "world." This isn't evidence as far as I know.

 

[HereIStand]

I don't agree with #2. An infinite degree doesn't mean anything to me. Also, going from reality exist to a self-existing being existing. If reality is the being then all we've said is that if reality exists then reality exists. Tautologically true.

Too, the whole idea that if something is possible it impinges on our "world." This isn't evidence as far as I know.

Why is world in quotes?

 

[HereIStand]

I don't agree with #2. An infinite degree doesn't mean anything to me. Also, going from reality exist to a self-existing being existing. If reality is the being then all we've said is that if reality exists then reality exists. Tautologically true.

Too, the whole idea that if something is possible it impinges on our "world." This isn't evidence as far as I know.

Infinity to me means that something goes on forever. We don't nor does anything we perceive. But if everything ends, something must not. And this something can't have a beginning because it doesn't have an end. It exists in itself.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

As far as I can tell, no.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Why is world in quotes?

Because, IIRC, Plantinga, et al., uses the term to different possible realities. I put quotes around it to indicate this special meaning.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Infinity to me means that something goes on forever. We don't nor does anything we perceive. But if everything ends, something must not. And this something can't have a beginning because it doesn't have an end. It exists in itself.

When I think of degrees, I think of a range from 0 to 100 like a percentage. An infinite degree is like say "he gave 110% effort"; it is naught but hyperbole. I don't know what more than 100% degree would mean.

To say that if something exists to some small degree it must exist to an infinite degree ... well, I don't know what that could mean.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes. The video is a summary of Anselm's argument that if it is possible for God to exists, then He exists. The Atheist not only hast to deny God's existence, but the possibility of His existence. This is the summary slide, with the first point being "It's possible that a Maximally Great Being exists."

View attachment 199345

Thanks for summarizing. As for Anselm's argument...the short response is that you cannot define something into existence.

As for the "possibility of god existing"...it would be impossible to determine such a "possibility" without first knowing what god is. The only way to know what god is...would be if we actually had a god to observe, examine, dissect, etc. Anything else would be mere speculation about the properties of a god and those are ultimately useless for determining what's "possible" and what isn't.

 

[HereIStand]

Thanks for summarizing. As for Anselm's argument...the short response is that you cannot define something into existence.

As for the "possibility of god existing"...it would be impossible to determine such a "possibility" without first knowing what god is. The only way to know what god is...would be if we actually had a god to observe, examine, dissect, etc. Anything else would be mere speculation about the properties of a god and those are ultimately useless for determining what's "possible" and what isn't.

Thanks for the reply. Broadening the topic a bit, since we are in kitchen sink...Atheists disbelieve in God. But do they also disbelieve in the supernatural altogether?

 

[Desk trauma]

Thanks for the reply. Broadening the topic a bit, since we are in kitchen sink...Atheists disbelieve in God. But do they also disbelieve in the supernatural altogether?

Some do some don't.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Yes, I just spoke with Him last night... and I still feel His presence this morning.

Seems like a strange relationship if you compare it to human relationships. Would you say you speak to God like you do with another person?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

But the monster can't be the cause of itself.

Why not?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Unlike the monster, God has self-existence. He is the unmoved mover.

I'm unmoved by this argument.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

A more expansive argument. Beyond the mere monosyllable, charming though it is.

Simple questions deserve simple answers.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

View attachment 199345

I don't see how you get from #2 to #3. The rest depends on that jump in logic.

 

[HereIStand]

Some do some don't.

For those who do, in what sense do they?

 

[Desk trauma]

For those who do, in what sense do they?

You're going to have to ask them, I am not among their number.

 

[Colter]

replace monster with God, and your statement is just as valid.

Existential

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Thanks for the reply. Broadening the topic a bit, since we are in kitchen sink...Atheists disbelieve in God. But do they also disbelieve in the supernatural altogether?

I personally don't. If there is anything supernatural, it's probably just nature we don't yet fully understand. There are probably things we will never fully understand but that doesn't lead me to assume there is no natural explanation for it... we just haven't found one.

 

[Belk]

I have seen no evidence that convinces me there are such things as gods.

 

[HereIStand]

I have seen no evidence that convinces me there are such things as gods.

What do you mean by evidence in this case?