Does God draw or do we come?

[RobertZ]

It is only encouraging when taken in context with the whole purpose of God.

ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

We have as much ability to not be "consigned to disobedience" as we have ability to cause his 'mercy to come upon us all'.

I'm a bit surprised you didn't even comment on my post concerning your take on the Greek word helkuo having nothing to do with 'enabling' and everything to do with 'dragging'. Nor did you comment on my answer as to your question concerning "harden not your heart" was written. Was those answers insufficient for you?


cygnusx1

Do you think that God's plan for His beloved creation is over? I think not.

Or it means all men, a thought that is consistent with the totality of scripture IMO.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

No one has escaped the curse of Adam and no one will escape the work of Christ. The plan of the ages is just that. And there are ages to come before that scroll of time is no more and "God may be all in all".

Are you a universalist?

 

[Hillsage]

Are you a universalist?

Unashamedly YES!

It took 10 years of "seeking/knocking" for me to embrace that view. But that '10 years' of searching ended 30 years ago.

 

[Rightglory]

Jpark,

Originally Posted by Rightglory


which is why scripture states that If He were lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. John 12:32. Do you believe He was lifted up?

Your response....

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
The serpent became a source of life to those who looked upon it. Jesus became a source of life (1 Cor. 15:45) to those who look upon Him.
I can't discern if "all men" refers to everyone or just those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor. 15:22-23).

If it does not refer to all men, then all men did not die through adam either. Can you confirm anywhere that many if not most men never die? If you say that all men die through the condemnation of Adam, then all shall be made alive in Christ as well. It is why it states that all the dead shall be raised because Christ arose. It cannot be otherwise. John 6:39 also confirms this. Rev 20:11-12 also confirms this fact.

If Christ did not raise our mortal natures to life, then there is no Incarnation of Christ.

But I do know these:
John 7:37-38 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
Matt. 19:13-15 Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.
I suppose I could revise my statement and position and say that God has already initiated it so now anyone can come to Christ willingly. But for now, I'll remain neutral.

All men were created to be able to respond to God. Paul confirms this in Rom 1:18-24, Christ gave life to the world including all humankind, so that everyone could make the choice for themselves and not be condemned through Adam.

 

[Hammster]

Do you think that God's plan for His beloved creation is over? I think not.

So God still might draw Pharaoh to Himself?

 

[Hillsage]

So God still might draw Pharaoh to Himself?

It is my hope that such is so...along with ALL of His creation.

ROM 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.

 

[cygnusx1]

Wow, well that sure is encouraging. :-(

what that God is active over history , shaping it and revealing His Judgments ?

I find it very encouraging that the Lord visits the proud , that He restricts their steps , that He doesn't sit there wondering what to do . God's judgements are visted upon this earth , the book of Revelation shows us judgements begin before Judgement day.


If you were on the receiving end of tyranny and evil , you too would find these scriptures exceedingly encouraging .

 

[Hisbygrace]

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[Jpark]

Depends on what draw means.

Does God pull or lead (Rom. 8:14, Matt. 4:1, word search for led)?

Note that led does not always indicate willingness. Captives are led, they go where they don't want to go.

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Does God pull first and then lead, pull and lead, or lead then pull?

 

[Jpark]

Jpark,



If it does not refer to all men, then all men did not die through adam either.

There's a reason why I quoted verse 23. It says those who are Christ's at His coming. If the second all men means all men, then that means there will be no opposition in His coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

John 6:39 also confirms this.

Rev 20:11-12 also confirms this fact.

I was expecting you to quote John 12:32:

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

John 3:13-15 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Num. 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Notice that there is distinction between beholding and believing. Thus, there is distinction between being made alive and inheriting eternal life. There is a major difference.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

If all will behold the Son (Matt. 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.),

Will all believe?

No.

For how can there be opposition in Rev. 21:8, in which mankind had the presence of Jesus and of God with them? It is because man wanted self-rule. They did not want Jesus to rule over them. Their acceptance of His rule was not genuine. There is hostility in man, enmity against God, deep resentment of Him.

John 12:32-33 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

John 21:18-19 "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!"

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Rom. 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Only those who obey will be Christ's at His coming. Draw all men merely means all will behold Him and will be subjected to Him (whether by will or by compulsion).

I'll say it again. If all will be Christ's at His coming, then what is 2 Thess. 1:7-9?

2 Thess. 1:7-9 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

All men were created to be able to respond to God. Paul confirms this in Rom 1:18-24, Christ gave life to the world including all humankind,

so that everyone could make the choice for themselves and not be condemned through Adam.

There's no denying that. I have stated multiple times that man has inherent desire for God; this is because of his spirit.

I'm rejecting universalism, not choice.

 

[Heavens]

God calls many of us; "The called".

Some of us choose to respond; "The chosen".

(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Period

 

[Brother Chris]

As I look back at my conversion experience, from the human side, certain things started happening to me as an unbeliever, I kept going back to the internet to find out if hell is real and if my sins were taking me there. This happened over a few months. I remember going to bed worried that if I died I would end up in hell, and so I continued searching for the truth until one day, I was convinced that hell was real and my sins were taking me there. I knew I needed to repent and get right with God and come to Christ to be saved. During this time it really felt like it was all my doing. But now, looking at it through God's sovereign grace, He was drawing me to His Son and He brought me to the place where I would repent and believe in His Son to be saved. The drawing is a drawing that leads to salvation, and can not be resisted. I know from experience, I could not resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit when I was saved. To God be the Glory for saving this hell-bound sinner by His grace and mercy!!!

 

[Jpark]

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Yes, it is true that all will be made alive. But not all will inherit eternal life.

1 Cor. 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Dan. 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matt. 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There is no universalism.

Edit:

But I do not necessarily advocate Calvinism. There is no eternal security for one who believes and then sins and does not repent.

Ezek. 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

 

[Hammster]

God calls many of us; "The called".

Some of us choose to respond; "The chosen".

(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Period

How are those who choose "the chosen"? Shouldn't God, then, be the chosen, and them the choosers?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[Hillsage]

How are those who choose "the chosen"? Shouldn't God, then, be the chosen, and them the choosers?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)

 

[heymikey80]

I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)

Well, "kletos" is more closely connected to "summoned" -- essentially you're being ordered up. eklektos is picked, or chosen.

So the distinction made is between people being summoned to Christ -- the gospel is indeed a summons to response -- and those who are chosen for this favor. Every knee shall bow; but some will be redeemed. Christ is a Victor; He is also a Savior.

 

[Hammster]

I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)

That doesn't even fit with the parable.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[nobdysfool]

'

I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)

Which is nothing like the plain meaning of the words, and the passage.

 

[Rightglory]

Jpark,

There's a reason why I quoted verse 23. It says those who are Christ's at His coming. If the second all men means all men, then that means there will be no opposition in His coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

It really does not help your view. From verse 13-19 is all about all being raised. NOthing is ever limited in the Resurrection.

Verse 23 is just the order, those that died in Christ will be the first fruits of the resurrection. Then those that are still alive will be transformed at His coming. But all men will arise at that moment. Rev 20:13 gives the same story.

Christ is the firstborn of the dead, not the elect or any other group.

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Notice that there is distinction between beholding and believing. Thus, there is distinction between being made alive and inheriting eternal life. There is a major difference.

There is a huge difference between verse 39 and 40. Verse 40 is an impossibility unless verse 39 occurs.

Meaning, every human being that died through the condemnation of Adam will be given life by Christ. Very simple to understand. Christ assumed our human nature in order to transform it from mortal to immortal. Which is why every single human being will be raised on the last day.

This is precisely what verse 39 is saying. The impersonal pronouns is actually refereing to our human natures which, none will be lost and will all be raised the last day.

Then verse40, OF all HUMANKIND, all human beings, every single soul that ever lived, of those of verse 39 they that believe and see will have everlasting life with Him.

Actually by purely word defintion, being made alive means precisely that all human beings will have an eternal life or existance. It's just that in most references the key or important matter is that it means to have an eternal existance, Life with Christ.

The rest will also have an eternal existance but they will be apart from God. It is called the Second death, or a spiritual separation.

I'll say it again. If all will be Christ's at His coming, then what is 2 Thess. 1:7-9?

Obviously, you have totally misunderstood what I had stated as well as your understanding of scripture.

I Cor 15:22 has absolutely nothing to do with believers or a spiritual existance, or being IN Christ.

It has all to do with reversing the fall. Adam lost life, an eternal existance, the condemnation against him was death, man became mortal. Christ is the solution because He gives man life, immortality. You are again confusing what Christ accomplished on the Cross as our Incarnate Savior, from our relationship with Him which is our personal, individual salvation through faith.

Originally Posted by Rightglory
All men were created to be able to respond to God. Paul confirms this in Rom 1:18-24, Christ gave life to the world including all humankind,
so that everyone could make the choice for themselves and not be condemned through Adam.
Your response.....

There's no denying that. I have stated multiple times that man has inherent desire for God; this is because of his spirit.
I'm rejecting universalism, not choice.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. But you have failed to understand that what I am explaining and what scripture is saying has nothing to do with Universalism.

You cannot have choice, unless Christ reverses the fall first. It is why He was needed. God could not have a relationship with any man as long as man was dead, mortal. What good would it do God to simply have some earthly relationship with man and man would die and cease to exist after that mortal death?

In other words, If man does not recieve life, then there can be no relationship spiritually either. This is what I Cor 15:19 is saying. If the dead are not raised, then our faith is vain. If you don't have an eternal existance, all the faith in the world is not going to do you any good.

 

[Heavens]

I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)

That's right! Thank you, saves me from explaining it ehehe

It is also the explanation as to those who are resurrected into damnation (the disobedient "called") and those resurrected to everlasting life (the obedient "chosen")
which one are we right now, this very second? Let a man examine himself...

 

[Brother Chris]

That's right! Thank you, saves me from explaining it ehehe

It is also the explanation as to those who are resurrected into damnation (the disobedient "called") and those resurrected to everlasting life (the obedient "chosen")
which one are we right now, this very second? Let a man examine himself...

When the bible talks about those who do not obey the Gospel, it's referring to unbelievers. The Gospel is a command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. The evidence that one has been saved, chosen, after being called, is that they live a life of obedience to the Word of God. Not perfect obedience, because then no one would be saved, but habitual active obedience. Like you said, let a man examine himself to see if he is in the faith. Many people believe they are saved because at one point in their life they prayed a prayer or asked Jesus into their heart, and someone else told them they were saved. Yet they go on living like the rest of the world and show no transformation, no fruit. The called are those who are invited, to repent and believe the Gospel. The chosen are those who actually do repent and believe and are saved. But according to scripture, the chosen have not done anything to merit favor with God, God by His will and sovereignty chose them to be saved before the foundation of the world. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross has infinite value, and can save everyone, but not everyone will be saved. Therefore the message the salvation is offered to everyone, but only the elect will respond and be saved.