Does God draw or do we come?

[AndOne]

YouTube - Why George Bryson Won't Debate Anymore

 

[Hammster]

I've listened to the "Read my book" debate that he did with James White on The Bible Answer Man broadcast. There is no way he could hold up under a real cross ex. He only barely hung on because Hank was on his side.

 

[AndOne]

I've listened to the "Read my book" debate that he did with James White on The Bible Answer Man broadcast. There is no way he could hold up under a real cross ex. He only barely hung on because Hank was on his side.

Hank lost a lot of credibility that day...

 

[RobertZ]

I have been thinking about something and I want to know is it really so wrong to believe that when God enables a person to come to Christ that its then that the person has the ability to either accept him or to reject him?

I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 shows this and after reading John Mcarthers commentary on Hebrews 6:4-6 he even says himself that the passage is speaking of those who have gotten right up to the point of saving faith and then turn away from it committing apostasy.

Please explain to me how its possible for a person to get right up to the point of saving faith unless the Holy Spirit had been dealing with the person?

 

[heymikey80]

The absence of faith in Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks reams to this passage. The Hebrews 6:4-6 person didn't have faith. MacArthur tends to talk about that as "full commitment"; I don't. I think it has something to do with relying on Christ and not another, it doesn't have to do with the fear & doubt that's expressed by anyone who is listening to other human beings (and thus isn't crazy). Our reality is scary. There's only one of its kind.

 

[heymikey80]

God draws, so we come.

 

[riverrat]

RobertZ wrote:

Please explain to me how its possible for a person to get right up to the point of saving faith unless the Holy Spirit had been dealing with the person?

I agree. The Holy Spirit is the "hound of heaven" It is a man's choice to respond or reject. Each time he rejects it becomes easier to reject the next time.

 

[RobertZ]

God draws, so we come.

But that doesnt really answer my orginal question. Yes God draws/enables us to come but is it wrong to believe that a person can say no to God at that point and resist his drawing?

 

[RobertZ]

RobertZ wrote:



I agree. The Holy Spirit is the "hound of heaven" It is a man's choice to respond or reject. Each time he rejects it becomes easier to reject the next time.

Thats exactly the way im thinking because if this were not possible then you wouldnt have this warning passage-

"Today if you will hear his voice harden not your heart"

If it were not possible to resist and harden our hearts to Gods convicting Holy Spirit then why was this passage written?

 

[riverrat]

RobertZ : Like minds think alike, lol

 

[msortwell]

I have seen the following argument met with some disdain. It is not clear to me why. It seems clear that the Author of John, as inspired by the Holy Spirit, does not equate “drawing” with wooing but with reorienting/relocating. That is, he would seem to equate “drawing” with actually affecting a designed change in disposition.

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 AV)

“And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.” (Joh 21:6 AV)

Doesn’t John 21:6 lead to the NECESSARY inference that, unless one actually reorients/relocates the object that is being acted upon (that which one is attempting to draw) then one has not, in fact, “dawn” the object?

The disciples were able to pull on the net, but the inspired text indicates that such an act does not constitute “drawing.” Where is the weakness in this argument that draws such ire from some?

But to answer the original question raised . . .

It is not an either/or situation. God draws AND we come. We ought never shy away from acknowledging that men must believe, choose, come, etc. Too often we Calvinists come off sounding rather silly when we try to avoid what some seem to consider "arminianish" language - when, in fact, it is simply biblical language.

 

[Hillsage]

But that doesnt really answer my orginal question. Yes God draws/enables us to come but is it wrong to believe that a person can say no to God at that point and resist his drawing?

The error I see is that you are defining the word 'draw' as some kind of wooing or wishing on the part of God. Such is not the definition of the word. The definition of the word is always dependent upon the will of the one drawing/dragging and not the one being drawn/dragged.

JOH 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws/drags/1670 him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)

This word helkuo is never used in scripture as any kind of "enablement" as you posted above. Such an interpretation is not substantiated by any other verse in the bible where this very same word is used. Below I quote them all.

JOH 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew/dragged/1670 it,
JOH 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw/drag/1670 it for the multitude of fishes.
This verse speaks of men not being able to draw/drag the net because of their weakness, such is not the case of our God, whose will, no one is able to resist.
ROM 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

And in the following verse we see that those same fish who couldn't be dragged in verse 6 above WERE still dragged against their will with the help of one more man....God doesn't need more help to accomplish his will.
JOH 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew/dragged/1670 the net to land full of great fishes
,
ACT 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew/dragged/1670 them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
ACT 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew/dragged/1670 him out of the temple:
Do you think that Paul and Silas' WILL had anything to do with whether or not they were drawn/dragged by the mob?

JAM 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw/drag/1670 you before the judgment seats?

"Today if you will hear his voice harden not your heart"

If it were not possible to resist and harden our hearts to Gods convicting Holy Spirit then why was this passage written?

This scripture was not written to unbelievers...but believers.

The only two times that scripture speaks of such a thing, it is talking to those who have already been chosen and are the people of God. You can't apply it to unbelievers. (Deut 15:7, Psa 95:8)

 

[Jpark]

God is the initiator. Plain and simple.

 

[Rightglory]

Jpark,

God is the initiator. Plain and simple.

which is why scripture states that If He were lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. John 12:32. Do you believe He was lifted up?

 

[Jpark]

Jpark,

which is why scripture states that If He were lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. John 12:32. Do you believe He was lifted up?

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

The serpent became a source of life to those who looked upon it. Jesus became a source of life (1 Cor. 15:45) to those who look upon Him.

I can't discern if "all men" refers to everyone or just those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor. 15:22-23).

But I do know these:

John 7:37-38 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

Matt. 19:13-15 Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.

I suppose I could revise my statement and position and say that God has already initiated it so now anyone can come to Christ willingly. But for now, I'll remain neutral.

 

[cygnusx1]

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

The serpent became a source of life to those who looked upon it. Jesus became a source of life (1 Cor. 15:45) to those who look upon Him.

I can't discern if "all men" refers to everyone or just those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor. 15:22-23).

But I do know these:

John 7:37-38 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

Matt. 19:13-15 Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.

I suppose I could revise my statement and position and say that God has already initiated it so now anyone can come to Christ willingly. But for now, I'll remain neutral.

did Christ draw Esau , Cain , Pharoah , Dathan , Saul , Jezebel , Herod , Judas , the anti-Christ to himself ?

I think not .

again I will draw all men surely means from every quater , background and nation.

God resists the proud , He sends upon them strong delusions , He sets them up on a slippery path so that they will fall (Ps 73) He blinds them , He permits Satan to take them captive , He hands them over to more sin. (Rom 1-2)

 

[Hammster]

did Christ draw Esau , Cain , Pharoah , Dathan , Saul , Jezebel , Herod , Judas , the anti-Christ to himself ?

I think not .

again I will draw all men surely means from every quater , background and nation.

God resists the proud , He sends upon them strong delusions , He sets them up on a slippery path so that they will fall (Ps 73) He blinds them , He permits Satan to take them captive , He hands them over to more sin. (Rom 1-2)

Right. Funny how some people think salvation stated after the Cross. And then just magically, everyone on Earth felt a tugging.

 

[RobertZ]

God resists the proud , He sends upon them strong delusions , He sets them up on a slippery path so that they will fall (Ps 73) He blinds them , He permits Satan to take them captive , He hands them over to more sin. (Rom 1-2)

Wow, well that sure is encouraging. :-(

 

[AndOne]

Wow, well that sure is encouraging. :-(

If you seek to live in humility and humbleness it certainly is...

 

[Hillsage]

Wow, well that sure is encouraging. :-(

It is only encouraging when taken in context with the whole purpose of God.

ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

We have as much ability to not be "consigned to disobedience" as we have ability to cause his 'mercy to come upon us all'.

I'm a bit surprised you didn't even comment on my post concerning your take on the Greek word helkuo having nothing to do with 'enabling' and everything to do with 'dragging'. Nor did you comment on my answer as to your question concerning "harden not your heart" was written. Was those answers insufficient for you?


cygnusx1

did Christ draw Esau , Cain , Pharoah , Dathan , Saul , Jezebel , Herod , Judas , the anti-Christ to himself ?

I think not .

Do you think that God's plan for His beloved creation is over? I think not.

again I will draw all men surely means from every quarter , background and nation.

Or it means all men, a thought that is consistent with the totality of scripture IMO.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

No one has escaped the curse of Adam and no one will escape the work of Christ. The plan of the ages is just that. And there are ages to come before that scroll of time is no more and "God may be all in all".