Does God Create Good and Evil?

[victoryword]

Looks like my other thread has been hijacked. However, I have settled this controvery between myself and ABlessedMan that we have had for a few years now concerning the interpretation of Isiah 45:7. You can find most of what I have written in some online blogs:

Part 1
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-god-creator-of-good-and-evil-part-one.html

Part 2
http://cvbibleteachingcenter.blogspot.ru/2016/01/is-god-creator-of-good-and-evil-part-two.html

Part 3
http://cvbibleteachingcenter.blogspot.ru/2016/01/is-god-creator-of-good-and-evil-part.html

I will post parts 2 and 3 (which gets to the heart of the subject) for easier discussion.

 

[victoryword]

Here is part two:

January 7

Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part Two)​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)​

Yesterday we learned that some theologians believe that Isaiah 45:7 teaches us that God is the creator of “natural evil” (as judgment). While it is a step away from making God the author of moral evil, further examination of this passage vindicates God from authoring any evil.
God is the source of only good (Psa. 85:12; 86:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 29; 135:3; 136:1). He is not the source of evil or its results. Evil produces evil (Matt. 7:15-20). The fruit of evil is death and destruction (Ps. 7:14-16; 34:15-21; Prov. 1:31; 22:8; Gal. 6:7-8; Hosea 8:7; 10:13; Jer. 12:13). God is not the giver of evil fruit, but Satan is (John 8:44; 10:10).

In the context of Isa. 45:7, the Lord was at war with Babylon and He was letting them know that as a part of His judgment upon them He would allow calamity or trouble to come their way. The calamities are the result of judgment upon nations like Babylon that oppose God (Isa. 45:24) and who will reap what they have sown (Ps. 7:14-16; Gal. 6:5-6).

So why does God say that He is the creator of darkness and evil in Isa. 45:7? This is resolved as we learn the language of the Bible. To understand the problem of evil we must understand the Hebrew language and its “permissive idioms”. The language in Isa. 45:7 must be viewed as “permissive” rather than “causative”. Dr. Walter C. Kaiser writes:

“Even though much of the physical evil often comes through the hands of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Thus, the Hebrew way of speaking, which ignores secondary causation in a way Western thought would never do, whatever God permits may be directly attributed to him, often without noting that secondary and sinful parties were the immediate causes of the disaster…. It is God who must allow (and that is the proper term) these calamities to come.1​

Evil is the result of people removing themselves from God’s protection, thus receiving the consequences of their choices in a morally ordered universe. God’s responsibility as far as evil is concerned is only to the extent that He created laws of sowing and reaping.

Notes:
1. Kaiser Jr., Walter C. Hard Sayings of the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1996), p. 306

 

[victoryword]

January 8

Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part Three)​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)​

Yesterday we learned that Isa. 45:7 must be understood from a “permissive” rather than a “causative” sense. Some passages make this point clear. Deuteronomy 28:15-28, for example, uses the typical punitive language for disobedience and it ascribes to God the tragedies that would fall upon Israel such as “I will destroy thee…. I will smite thee....I will send enemies.... I will send pestilence... etc.”

However, these are simply Hebrew idioms which ascribe to God as doing the thing which He only permitted. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture, we see that God is not the author of the disasters (evils) that came upon Babylon. He permits these disasters due to their sin.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” (Deut. 31:16-18).​

The word “evils” in the passage above is the Hebrew word “ra”; the same word used in Isa. 45:7. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture we see that evil comes when the Lord is absent. This is the proper understanding of the phrase “I create evil”.

Examining Isa. 45:7 in light of the above, we see that God is light (1 John 1:9; James 1:17) and creates darkness when He withdraws and darkness prevails. God offers men His light in spite of their rebellion (Isa. 50:10; John 8:12; 12:46; 1 Pet. 2:9) but men reject it because they hate it (John 1:5-11; 3:19-20). Therefore, Isa. 45:7 is permissive in that God is allowing men the consequences of their choices. God is not the author of physical or moral evil. Evil comes when the source of good that protects from evil is forsaken. This is permission and not causation.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

However, I have settled this controvery between myself and ABlessedMan that we have had for a few years now concerning the interpretation of Isiah 45:7.

Settled?? Hardly.

 

[tbeachhead]

January 8

Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part Three)​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)​

Yesterday we learned that Isa. 45:7 must be understood from a “permissive” rather than a “causative” sense. Some passages make this point clear. Deuteronomy 28:15-28, for example, uses the typical punitive language for disobedience and it ascribes to God the tragedies that would fall upon Israel such as “I will destroy thee…. I will smite thee....I will send enemies.... I will send pestilence... etc.”

However, these are simply Hebrew idioms which ascribe to God as doing the thing which He only permitted. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture, we see that God is not the author of the disasters (evils) that came upon Babylon. He permits these disasters due to their sin.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” (Deut. 31:16-18).​

The word “evils” in the passage above is the Hebrew word “ra”; the same word used in Isa. 45:7. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture we see that evil comes when the Lord is absent. This is the proper understanding of the phrase “I create evil”.

Examining Isa. 45:7 in light of the above, we see that God is light (1 John 1:9; James 1:17) and creates darkness when He withdraws and darkness prevails. God offers men His light in spite of their rebellion (Isa. 50:10; John 8:12; 12:46; 1 Pet. 2:9) but men reject it because they hate it (John 1:5-11; 3:19-20). Therefore, Isa. 45:7 is permissive in that God is allowing men the consequences of their choices. God is not the author of physical or moral evil. Evil comes when the source of good that protects from evil is forsaken. This is permission and not causation.

It's simple really: Before Light, there is nothing.

Once light is formed, darkness exists where light is not. It is the offscouring. The refuse. It is only absence. Simple as that.

Hi, Troy!

Pete

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

It's simple really: Before Light, there is nothing.

Once light is formed, darkness exists where light is not. It is the offscouring. The refuse. It is only absence. Simple as that.

Hi, Troy!

Pete

What is the refuse of a brick? Of a slice of bread? Of a teardrop? What is the absence of these?

What if darkness didn't want to fill that void when light was removed?

Or was it by Design that it fills the void?

 

[tbeachhead]

What is the refuse of a brick? Of a slice of bread? Of a teardrop? What is the absence of these?

What if darkness didn't want to fill that void when light was removed?

Or was it by Design that it fills the void?

A brick is the product...what's left of the material...mud, clay, stubble... that which is not brick, is refuse....Try to understand: There is no darkness until the light appears. As the light brightens, the darkness is only the starker for the absence thereof.

 

[Truthfrees]

Great posts Troy!

Solid work done!

Easy to understand and concise!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

A brick is the product...what's left of the material...mud, clay, stubble... that which is not brick, is refuse....Try to understand: There is no darkness until the light appears. As the light brightens, the darkness is only the starker for the absence thereof.

Pete...
If I have a brick and I remove it...I don't have mud, clay and stubble. I really don't. I just tried it.

Pete...

Gen 1:2-3 (KJV)
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.​

Verse 2. There is darkness.
Verse 3. There is light.

Verse 2. The presence of darkness had NOTHING to do with light. There was no concept of light in verse 2. There was no light not to be there.

Yet, there was darkness.

Why?

Verse 1:

Gen 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
​

Now, what was created in verse 1. Is there water? In verse 2 there is water but not said to be created. Is water just the refuse of dry land? I think water was created as part of the earth in verse 1. In verse 2 there is darkness. There is no such thing as light yet. Yet there is darkness.

You can't have an absence of something that doesn't even exist!

It's a nice philosophy, but darkness is not the absence of light. Darkness is a weaker thing than light. When light enters, darkness must flee. Light wins the fight, the battle.

In Isaiah 45:7 God says that He forms light and He created darkness.

Personally, that settles it for me. God told us where darkness came from. Verse 2 of Genesis tells me it had nothing to do with something that did not exist at that time. Verse 3 proves it.

 

[xpower]

Good and Evil are not things.

 

[de1929]

I can accept the opinion because it helps spreading good news, and Holy Spirit testify that the reason is good for some people for some occasion. It fits wof value as well.

There is no way all bible verses interpretation fit for all people. E.g. thorn in the flesh. KC teaches to speak the torn out because we have the grace we needed, protestant teaches GOD is allowing the torn because sufferings teaches a lesson. wof does not subscribe to protestant teaching in this issue. We follow KC opinion.

I know some teachers pushes the balanced view on everything. Sorry to say there is no balanced view. There is only obedience to CHRIST and it will be not balanced, but full of grace. Full of GOD's grace may not be balanced at all. Thank GOD that GOD did NOT push suffering theology into wof movements.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Got your book bro... I'll do a review when I am done reading.

 

[victoryword]

It's simple really: Before Light, there is nothing.

Once light is formed, darkness exists where light is not. It is the offscouring. The refuse. It is only absence. Simple as that.

Hi, Troy!

Pete

Pete, what's shakin' bacon? You are a sight for sore eyes.

 

[victoryword]

Got your book bro... I'll do a review when I am done reading.

Thanks Dids. I hope you enjoy it. I bought your book on natural disasters some months ago. My book dealing with the same subject will be out soon.

 

[victoryword]

Bob, 1 John 1:5 says that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

In Genesis 1, if you are a Genesis 1:2 gap man like myself, the answer is simple. Satan rebelled between Genesis 1:1 and 2, destruction came, and they lost the light. He was "Lucifer" ("light-bearer") and later, of his own accord, became the prince of darkness (Col. 1:12-14). God did not create darkness anymore than He created Lucifer to be Satan.

 

[com7fy8]

My work-in-progress idea about this is that "create" can mean making something out of what already exists.

Also, to create can mean to lay the foundation of something, I think . . . not that God would lay what supports evil but He would have underlying control of it so it can't go just anywhere and do just anything.

So, creating evil could mean how God manages what evil is allowed to do, using His all-control to manage it; and there can be His creative results, like how He used Joseph's situation for the good of many > Genesis 37-50.

And in that verse in Isaiah it looks as though it means that God can manage how things will go for the Jews > while they disobey, He can manage trouble to come their way in order to resist them from getting into as much evil as they could. So, His managed trouble has them in less trouble than if He let them go totally free >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:7 and also in 1 Peter 5:5).

 

[victoryword]

And in that verse in Isaiah it looks as though it means that God can manage how things will go for the Jews >

Hi com7fy8, God was actually addressing the Babylonians in Isa. 45:7

 

[Hoghead1]

I certainly do not think God gives "permission" for evil to occur or that God sits back and does nothing. I think that God recognizes he or she is dealing with free beings and therefore that they cannot be coerced into doing anything.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi com7fy8, God was actually addressing the Babylonians in Isa. 45:7

Hmm . . . now that I have checked this > it looks like He is specifically addressing Cyrus??

And, if so, it looks to me like the LORD is saying how He has given great things into the hands of Cyrus, and He is the One who is able to do this, since God is the One who "creates" good and evil . . . meaning He has the control to manage things the way He wants. And so, I think He means, Cyrus needs to not boast in himself as being the one who has gotten things for himself.

 

[victoryword]

I certainly do not think God gives "permission" for evil to occur or that God sits back and does nothing. I think that God recognizes he or she is dealing with free beings and therefore that they cannot be coerced into doing anything.

Basically, God is the one who is PREVENTING evil but rebellious people forsake their God. After so much time God begs and pleads with His people to return to Him but when they constantly refuse He is left with no choice but to abandon those He has been protecting (Deut. 31:16-18).

It is when God abandons (or is actually "pushed away") that He is said to have "done" or "created" evil.