Does God Create Good and Evil?

[SavedByGrace3]

From the book "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth"



Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things."

We need to read this verse in the context of what is being said.

Shadows Sometimes Silhouette the Object

Isaiah is setting up opposites. This is a common literary technique used by the authors of the Old Testament. In order to help us fully understand a principle, the author contrasts one aspect of the principle against another, thereby creating a more complete view of what is being said.

"I form the light, and create darkness..."

This is more than merely “opposites," rather it is more like the second thing is what you have in the "absence" of the first. There is darkness in the absence of light. There is chaos in the absence of order.

Genesis 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good:
and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here light is created and as a result of the light, the dark is defined. I can create darkness too. I can walk in front of the sun and "create" shadow: "darkness."

Without the light, we would not know what the opposite "dark" was. In reality, darkness is merely the absence of light. It is created when light is covered. Darkness came as a result of light being made. You could read that verse as saying:

"I form the light and (by doing so) create (or define) darkness..."

One aspect is contrasted against the other and so you have a fuller understanding of what He is saying. We have to read the next half of the verse the same way.

"I make peace, and create evil..."

So what is the opposite of peace? I believe that “evil” in this context is just the absence of orderly peace. It is chaos. If you take away the orderly structure of a building, you end up with the chaos of that building falling down. Just as when you remove light, you end up with darkness, so too when you remove the orderliness of peace, you end up with the chaos and disaster. It is a matter of opposites and the second existing in the absence of the other.

What is defined by the absence of peace? The answer is found in some of the better translations:

Isa 45:7 (GW)
(7) I make light and create darkness.
I make blessings and create disasters.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Disasters come into being in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "blessings."

Isa 45:7 (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

“Calamity” exists in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "well being."

Isa 45:7 (Amplified Bible)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace [national well-being]
and I create [physical] evil (calamity);
I am the Lord, Who does all these things.


He "creates" physical evil/calamity in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) "peace/well being."

Isaiah 45:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

He creates "disaster" in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) of success. In these verses the meaning of "evil" is controlled and defined by the meaning of and absence of the positive things such as "light" and "peace." The words being used for "create" and "form" are even different Hebrew words, showing that the formation of the first items (light/peace) are the "things" actually "formed" by God, and the second items (darkness/calamity) are merely defined and are the result of the actualization of those first items.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Calamity is the absence of peace. And in this context, I think a better word than peace is actually “placid.” You can think of the chaos of a raging sea is the opposite of a placid one.

It is very much like how the law reveals sin.

As the NT says, without the law sin is not defined. But did God "create" sin? No, the light merely defines the sin, exposes it and shows us what sin is. I think Isa 45:7 is saying something very much like this. Without light, darkness cannot exist, be defined, or understood. Without peace, calamity ("evil") as the absence of peace, is not defined or understood.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Hi Troy! I was more or less leaving your thread alone, buy hey.

Bob, 1 John 1:5 says that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

I never said that he had darkness in Him.

In Genesis 1, if you are a Genesis 1:2 gap man like myself, the answer is simple. Satan rebelled between Genesis 1:1 and 2, destruction came, and they lost the light. He was "Lucifer" ("light-bearer") and later, of his own accord, became the prince of darkness (Col. 1:12-14).

I'm not sure what to make of the gap. I tend toward it, but this description reads too much into it. Other than tohu bohu, the chaos resulting after a perfect creation, I (personally) wouldn't stretch this too far.

God did not create darkness anymore than He created Lucifer to be Satan.

Except that scripture says He did. Explicitly. You have to play the games of permissive vs active verbs. I've had discussions with a couple rabbis who know Hebrew -- they laughed at the idea of only permissive verbs in Hebrew. I wasn't specifically talking to them about this subject so it wasn't on my mind. I didn't specifically ask them about Isa 45:7. Too bad, that could have been interesting. If I happen to have a chance to meet up with them again, perhaps I'll remember this discussion.

"I form the light and I create the darkness..." Isaiah 45:7

Both "form" and "create" are Qal and Active Participle. Qal means that it is simple action in an active voice. Active Participle means that it is an action with unbroken continuity. It keeps going.

However we read "create" (active/passive) then we must also read "form" the same way. If "create the darkness" simply means He permissively allowed it to be (but didn't actively create it) then the same is true for the light which would break the Genesis creation story in a way that Christianity would not allow. But this latter is not the reason to read these as actions, but rather the language defines itself and the reading is defined by the language. They are active actions performed by the subject of the sentence.

God actively and actionably formed the light.
God actively and actionably created the darkness.

I know you don't like this because there are too many verses that just don't sit well with us. Something that we must deal with, though.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Shadows Sometimes Silhouette the Object

Isaiah is setting up opposites. This is a common literary technique used by the authors of the Old Testament. In order to help us fully understand a principle, the author contrasts one aspect of the principle against another, thereby creating a more complete view of what is being said.

"I form the light, and create darkness..."

This is more than merely “opposites," rather it is more like the second thing is what you have in the "absence" of the first. There is darkness in the absence of light. There is chaos in the absence of order.

Genesis 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good:
and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here light is created and as a result of the light, the dark is defined. I can create darkness too. I can walk in front of the sun and "create" shadow: "darkness."

Why did you leave verses 1 and 2 out of the description?

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 3 God said, "Let there be light." And there was light! 4 God saw that the light was good, so God separated the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:1-4 (NET)​

Verse 1 the earth is created.
Verse 2 darkness exists without light.
Verse 3 light is created.

Here is an interesting thing: verse 4 God separates the light from the darkness. Darkness is not left when light is removed, but the two, in verse 4, exist together and have to be separated.

 

[victoryword]

God did not create darkness anymore than He created Lucifer to be Satan.

Except that scripture says He did. Explicitly. You have to play the games of permissive vs active verbs. I've had discussions with a couple rabbis who know Hebrew -- they laughed at the idea of only permissive verbs in Hebrew. I wasn't specifically talking to them about this subject so it wasn't on my mind. I didn't specifically ask them about Isa 45:7. Too bad, that could have been interesting. If I happen to have a chance to meet up with them again, perhaps I'll remember this discussion.

You know Bob, I am saying this with love - your post displays a lot of IGNORANCE! These rabbis that you claimed laughed at the truth about permissive idioms simply do not know their language or traditions. In my book, "God says that which He only permitted" I have historical proof that many of the Jews interpretted a lot of the incidents in Scripture in a permissive sense.

However, as I and others have shown time and again you don't even have to know the Hebrew language. You simply interpret the Bible with the Bible. I have shown in this very thread how Deut. 31:16-18 interprets the language of Isa. 45:7. However, if you are so set on the idea that God creates darkness you will continue to ignore ANYTHING that disproves your idea, including SCRIPTURE.

Furthermore, the Bible specifically says, out of God's own mouth, that HE DECEIVES:

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Eze. 14:9)

Now, do your Rabbi friends have an explanation as to why a God who says He cannot lie and that it is impossible for Him to lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18-19; Num. 23:19; Psalm 89:33-35) He would go around deceiving prophets and then punishing them for the deception?

I can explain it. I have the Scriptures to back up my explanation. However, if you and the rabbis laugh at what I discovered has been a sound system of interpretation for centuries that even Ezra the scribe has used (Ezra wrote 1 Chronicles - compare 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1) then nothing I say will resonate with you and you will have to believe that the God who claims to never lie is a DECEIVER of false prophets.

Sort of puts Satan out of business, ya think?

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

You know Bob, I am saying this with love - your post displays a lot of IGNORANCE!

I accept that in love. Back at ya.

These rabbis that you claimed laughed at the truth about permissive idioms simply do not know their language or traditions. In my book, "God says that which He only permitted" I have historical proof that many of the Jews interpretted a lot of the incidents in Scripture in a permissive sense.

Not sure what you consider "historical proof" to be; could you explain?

I've spent the last day and a half doing some cursory looking, and unless Jewish people simply do not use the internet I cannot find a JEWISH SOURCE for permissive idioms to the scale that you are suggesting. Could you please provide links to JEWISH SOURCES for this information since the Old Testament was and is their canon, and since you state you have "proof that many of the Jews interpreted a log of incidents in Scripture in a permissive sense."

So 1) what is historical proof, 2) who are "many" of the Jews, 3) what is "a lot" of incidents in Scripture. And importantly, do you have JEWISH SOURCES for your idea of permissive idioms. (btw...I'm only asking for answers and sources, not disparaging.)

As we shall see below, Hebrew does indeed (like any language) have a permissive tense. So my question #3 certainly is true in some sense, and in fact has some truth in Ezek 14:9 as we will see.

However, as I and others have shown time and again you don't even have to know the Hebrew language. You simply interpret the Bible with the Bible. I have shown in this very thread how Deut. 31:16-18 interprets the language of Isa. 45:7.

You have shown your interpretation of such subjects. You've shown your presuppositions, some of which are correct (God is good and does not bring bad to His children) and some which aren't (God never smites, He simply allows someone to be smited). I guess that is why one of the names of Jehovah is the "God that smiteth." But I digress.

However, if you are so set on the idea that God creates darkness you will continue to ignore ANYTHING that disproves your idea, including SCRIPTURE.

These disparaging statements attacking my character really do nothing for your argument. It only shows you to be attempting to bully another.

Furthermore, the Bible specifically says, out of God's own mouth, that HE DECEIVES:

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Eze. 14:9)

Now, do your Rabbi friends...

Noted the sarcasm that drips from your pen. And these two Rabbis are more acquaintances. I really don't see them all that often.

...have an explanation as to why a God who says He cannot lie and that it is impossible for Him to lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18-19; Num. 23:19; Psalm 89:33-35) He would go around deceiving prophets and then punishing them for the deception?

I'll ask you the same thing. You quoted Deut 31:16-18 as a support for the permissive evil of Isa 45:7. You said in a post earlier in this thread:

The word “evils” in the passage above is the Hebrew word “ra”; the same word used in Isa. 45:7. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture we see that evil comes when the Lord is absent. This is the proper understanding of the phrase “I create evil”.

Troy, why do you teach that the Lord is absent when scripture tells us He is always there? (Jer 23:23-24; Prov 15:3; 2 Chr 16:9; Psalm 145:18; Joshua 1:9; Genesis 28:15; Psalm 139:7–10.)

You see you are using terms selectively, the way you would like to prove your point. But proper Bible exegesis will show meaning.

I can explain it. I have the Scriptures to back up my explanation. However, if you and the rabbis laugh at what I discovered has been a sound system of interpretation for centuries that even Ezra the scribe has used (Ezra wrote 1 Chronicles - compare 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1) then nothing I say will resonate with you and you will have to believe that the God who claims to never lie is a DECEIVER of false prophets.

You make it sound like we sat around laughing at you. All I said was they laughed at the idea of only permissive verbs in Hebrew. Kind of like you might do if someone said that in English there are no words beginning with 'Q'. It seems like something that is naturally known, but then you simply give examples to the contrary.

So let's turn our attention to Ezekiel 14. Let's pull in a little more context, though.

Ezek 14:6-11 (KJV)
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:​

The context shows that Israel had turned to idols and they were relying on a false prophet to give them words from God. God said: "I'll answer him Myself." In other words, "I'll deal with guy."

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.​

So God says He will cut him off from Israel. God will remove him. He's not just permitting him to go; He is causatively and actionably going to remove him for what he has done to Israel.

This is called judgment. Do you ascribe to God's judgment, Troy?

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; 11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.​

So God says that the prophet will be dealt with, so will anyone who chooses to follow him after this. But the reason for God dealing with this situation is so that the house of Israel will not go astray any longer and not be further hurt by their own sin. He is calling Israel back to Himself.

So let's look at the word deceived. First of all, it is a word that more accurately means 'enticed,' but it also means and is rendered 'deceived' in scripture.

9 “But if the prophet [who speaks without My authority] is enticed to speak a word [of his own], it is I the Lord who have caused that prophet [to speak falsely to please the inquirer, thus allowing himself to be a party to the inquirer’s sin], and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.
Ezek 14:9 (Amplified)​

This is a false prophet speaking as if he had God's authority. God judges that. He doesn't allow judgment for such things. He states throughout scripture that He will judge sin.

Do you believe in judgment, Troy? Or are the unsaved permitted to go to hell?

The word deceived in the Hebrew is the word pathah. This is a Pual Imperfect verb. This indeed means that it is passive tense. It also indicates an action that is incomplete, it's action will continue. It means that the enticement was ongoing, allowing the prophet in his arrogance to answer the people seeking him.

The next form of deceived or enticed (depending upon translation) is the Lord saying that it is He who deceived/enticed the prophet. This is Piel Perfect. It is a completed action (perfect tense) but that the action is "intensive and intentional" (Piel stem). This is a causative action. The Lord allowed this prophet to act in his own way, so he had a choice not to sin, but once the deed was done the Lord actively pulled the prophet to a visible position so that His people, the Israelites, could see the deception and make their own choice for the prophet or for God.

The word destroy in the final phase, on the other hand, is Hiphil Perfect. Again, the perfect tense tells us a completed action: the prophet was destroyed from the midst of the people of Israel. The Hiphil stem expresses causative action. It is something that is performed, not as intensive as a Piel stem, but it was done, acted upon, performed.

Sort of puts Satan out of business, ya think?

No, Satan is quite actively trying to destroy God's people.


As always, I look forward to your reply and answer to all the questions I've posed.

 

[hhodgson]

You know Bob, I am saying this with love - your post displays a lot of IGNORANCE!

I accept that in love. Back at ya.

One of Satan's greatest weapons is man's ignorance of God's Word... and since I've walked in the room I will admit that I am more ignorant of God's Word than both of you, and as Hiliary Clinton would say, "What DIFFERENCE at this point does it make!!!"

The difference is your quotes..."saying and acepting" in Love. Let's show the viewers, the seekers, the lurkers of the world what word-of-faith... is really about.

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One of Satan's greatest weapons is man's ignorance of God's Word... and since I've walked in the room I will admit that I am more ignorant of God's Word than both of you, and as Hiliary Clinton would say, "What DIFFERENCE at this point does it make!!!"

The difference is your quotes..."saying and acepting" in Love. Let's show the viewers, the seekers, the lurkers of the world what word-of-faith... is really about.

View attachment 168590​

Indeed, indeed....

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

One of Satan's greatest weapons is man's ignorance of God's Word... and since I've walked in the room I will admit that I am more ignorant of God's Word than both of you, and as Hiliary Clinton would say, "What DIFFERENCE at this point does it make!!!"

The difference is your quotes..."saying and acepting" in Love. Let's show the viewers, the seekers, the lurkers of the world what word-of-faith... is really about.

View attachment 168590​

Absolutely Harry. Let me speak for Troy ( ) and say that this certainly is what we are. People who can have discussions and debates without any animosity or disparagement.

 

[now faith]

You know Bob, I am saying this with love - your post displays a lot of IGNORANCE! These rabbis that you claimed laughed at the truth about permissive idioms simply do not know their language or traditions. In my book, "God says that which He only permitted" I have historical proof that many of the Jews interpretted a lot of the incidents in Scripture in a permissive sense.

However, as I and others have shown time and again you don't even have to know the Hebrew language. You simply interpret the Bible with the Bible. I have shown in this very thread how Deut. 31:16-18 interprets the language of Isa. 45:7. However, if you are so set on the idea that God creates darkness you will continue to ignore ANYTHING that disproves your idea, including SCRIPTURE.

Furthermore, the Bible specifically says, out of God's own mouth, that HE DECEIVES:

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Eze. 14:9)

Now, do your Rabbi friends have an explanation as to why a God who says He cannot lie and that it is impossible for Him to lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18-19; Num. 23:19; Psalm 89:33-35) He would go around deceiving prophets and then punishing them for the deception?

I can explain it. I have the Scriptures to back up my explanation. However, if you and the rabbis laugh at what I discovered has been a sound system of interpretation for centuries that even Ezra the scribe has used (Ezra wrote 1 Chronicles - compare 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1) then nothing I say will resonate with you and you will have to believe that the God who claims to never lie is a DECEIVER of false prophets.

Sort of puts Satan out of business, ya think?

This passage is not of God deceiving the Prophet ,but simply stating that God himself is speaking truth through the prophet.


Ezekiel: 14. 4. Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; 5. That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. 6. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: 8. And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 9. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;


This is a metaphorical paradox that requires careful study of the intention of the premise.

 

[now faith]

You know theological debate becomes so incredibly void of understanding due to trying to seek deeper truth's that do not exist.
Running to translators to comprehend the obvious truth of God's word,or taking a verse to build a theroy is not how God intended his Word to be rightly divided.
Instead it divide's us.
Theology is what held back the Pharisees and Scribes from Christ,when Clearly they had so many prophetic truth's before them.

Example God said I create evil.
He only created evil by the gift of free will.
Did God created Satan yes.
Did God create Satan to rebellion against him no.

Any other view is that God purposed Satan for evil,if you believe this you may be a follower of Calvinism.
Yet by beliving this does it change your salvation no.

If you cannot see the truth in God creating light and dark you are missing it.
This is not metaphorical in Genesis it is literally light and dark, Sun by day moon by night.
Before the Sun and moon God who is light spoke light into the darkness and it was so.

Quote : Kenneth Hagin:A theroy is a supposition based on ignorance of fact.

 

[now faith]

Here is part two:

January 7

Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part Two)​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)​

Yesterday we learned that some theologians believe that Isaiah 45:7 teaches us that God is the creator of “natural evil” (as judgment). While it is a step away from making God the author of moral evil, further examination of this passage vindicates God from authoring any evil.
God is the source of only good (Psa. 85:12; 86:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 29; 135:3; 136:1). He is not the source of evil or its results. Evil produces evil (Matt. 7:15-20). The fruit of evil is death and destruction (Ps. 7:14-16; 34:15-21; Prov. 1:31; 22:8; Gal. 6:7-8; Hosea 8:7; 10:13; Jer. 12:13). God is not the giver of evil fruit, but Satan is (John 8:44; 10:10).

In the context of Isa. 45:7, the Lord was at war with Babylon and He was letting them know that as a part of His judgment upon them He would allow calamity or trouble to come their way. The calamities are the result of judgment upon nations like Babylon that oppose God (Isa. 45:24) and who will reap what they have sown (Ps. 7:14-16; Gal. 6:5-6).

So why does God say that He is the creator of darkness and evil in Isa. 45:7? This is resolved as we learn the language of the Bible. To understand the problem of evil we must understand the Hebrew language and its “permissive idioms”. The language in Isa. 45:7 must be viewed as “permissive” rather than “causative”. Dr. Walter C. Kaiser writes:

“Even though much of the physical evil often comes through the hands of wicked men and women, ultimately God permits it. Thus, the Hebrew way of speaking, which ignores secondary causation in a way Western thought would never do, whatever God permits may be directly attributed to him, often without noting that secondary and sinful parties were the immediate causes of the disaster…. It is God who must allow (and that is the proper term) these calamities to come.1​

Evil is the result of people removing themselves from God’s protection, thus receiving the consequences of their choices in a morally ordered universe. God’s responsibility as far as evil is concerned is only to the extent that He created laws of sowing and reaping.

Notes:
1. Kaiser Jr., Walter C. Hard Sayings of the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1996), p. 306

Who tempted Satan?

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Now Faith quoted this post by one I consider to be my friend, but when I read it with new eyes there were some very interesting things said:

Here is part two:

January 7

Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part Two)​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)​

Yesterday we learned that some theologians believe that Isaiah 45:7 teaches us that God is the creator of “natural evil” (as judgment). While it is a step away from making God the author of moral evil, further examination of this passage vindicates God from authoring any evil.
God is the source of only good (Psa. 85:12; 86:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 29; 135:3; 136:1). He is not the source of evil or its results. Evil produces evil (Matt. 7:15-20). The fruit of evil is death and destruction (Ps. 7:14-16; 34:15-21; Prov. 1:31; 22:8; Gal. 6:7-8; Hosea 8:7; 10:13; Jer. 12:13). God is not the giver of evil fruit, but Satan is (John 8:44; 10:10).

This is ripe for discussion. Let's see....

God is the source of only good (Psa. 85:12; ...

Yes, the Lord will bestow his good blessings,
and our land will yield its crops.​

Does this verse say or indicate "only?" No it does not. Take a random person as an example, for I do not think that God uses/gives/wields any evil (that He indeed created according to Isaiah 45:7), and if this random person would give you $1 million then he is giving you a good blessing. If he turns to the next person and strikes him across the face until his lip bleeds, then that is not a good blessing. So "only" is not a part of this this thought.

Ps 86:5;

Certainly O Lord, you are kind and forgiving,
and show great faithfulness to all who cry out to you.​

So is this to say that anyone who is "kind and forgiving" cannot be unforgiving. Hmm.

Matthew 12:31-32
For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​

So let's say our random person commits the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Will God be kind and forgive this person? No, He won't. He will be unforgiving. Is the Lord "kind and forgiving?" Of course He is.

Ps 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 29; 135:3; 136:1).

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good.​

Yes, each of these verses say this (or a very minor variant of it). This is actually disingenuous as it is used to simply fatten the list when it adds nothing new.

But there was an offering that the Lord is only good BECAUSE these verses say so. Well the Lord IS only good, this is a truth. But this (or these) verses DO NOT prove such a statement.

If one is said to be a good man, does this preclude him from ever doing anything not good? Let's look at David. Was he good? God thought so. But David committed adultery and had a man murdered. But God said he was good. "Only" is a very strong and precise word. Now, while the Lord is ONLY good -- this is an established truth -- these verses do not prove such a thing.

What else do we have:

He is not the source of evil or its results. Evil produces evil (Matt. 7:15-20).

15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.​

Using these verses as proof for what is said here simply is not correct. Let me show this...

Romans 7:15-16, 19, 24
For I do not do what I want—instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want!
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?​

If we take Matthew 7 in the manner it has been used above then Paul is one evil and wretched man. His fruit, according to verse 19, is evil.

I could use the same hermeneutic and I would come to the conclusion that Paul only does what he hates, he only does evil and he is only a wretched man.

But we know this is not true. Don't we?

The fruit of evil is death and destruction (Ps. 7:14-16; 34:15-21; Prov. 1:31; 22:8; Gal. 6:7-8; Hosea 8:7; 10:13; Jer. 12:13).

So based upon Paul saying that his fruit is evil, then he should have reaped death and destruction. Instead God used him to write most of the New Testament. He was good.

God is not the giver of evil fruit, but Satan is (John 8:44; 10:10).

I agree: God is not the giver of evil fruit. Him creating a complete world for choice does not break this, especially when He gave us a choice between blessing and curse, life and death; and further He told us what to choose: choose Life!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I think God created a universe of the possible. Nobody had to fall into evil. But in order for it to be a true, genuine, stand-alone creation... it has to be a universe of the possible. When God created this universe of the possible, He imparted elements of His own being into it. Sovereignty, the right to exist, the right to act according to it's own natural forces. We speak of men having free will. But creation itself in endowed with free course.
Nothing had to careen off into evil... but it did - and God knew it would. But He did not create it evil. He only created the possibility. Without possibility, God could never have a family that loved Him, praised and worshiped him.
Without the possibility of evil... there would be no possibility of good.
For instance. My sister gave birth to a child. The child became a criminal. He was not born to be a criminal. But indirectly my sister "created" evil.

God created "chaos" when He created possibility.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I think God created a universe of the possible. Nobody had to fall into evil. But in order for it to be a true, genuine, stand-alone creation... it has to be a universe of the possible. When God created this universe of the possible, He imparted elements of His own being into it. Sovereignty, the right to exist, the right to act according to it's own natural forces. We speak of men having free will. But creation itself in endowed with free course.
Nothing had to careen off into evil... but it did - and God knew it would. But He did not create it evil. He only created the possibility. Without possibility, God could never have a family that loved Him, praised and worshiped him.
Without the possibility of evil... there would be no possibility of good.
For instance. My sister gave birth to a child. The child became a criminal. He was not born to be a criminal. But indirectly my sister "created" evil.

Your sister did not "create." She participated in a miracle of God. And in that participation by giving birth she was not the source of any decision to do wrong by the offspring. That was his choice, not your sister's, set before him by our creator: (Deut 30:19) "I set before you the blessing and the curse, Life and Death. Choose Life!"

This is possibility, as you have iterated. God made a free choice possibility. And in that, He had to create the possible choices that were on that path.

 

[victoryword]

First, let me assure everyone that I consider Bob (ABlessedMan) to be my friend. We may strongly disagree on the subject of God creating evil, but I have known Bob longer than anyone else on this particular forum (Didaskalos I may have known longer since he and I were both on this forum from the time of its birth). Bob and I have fought together against heresy hunters and Calvinists and we have disagreed on some issues. When we do, we do so strongly but it does not cause any issues with our friendship.

I am pretty busy so I don't have time to respond to every disagreement or correction that some of you want to make to my behavior or my theology. My apologies for that. Take care.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

First, let me assure everyone that I consider Bob (ABlessedMan) to be my friend. We may strongly disagree on the subject of God creating evil, but I have known Bob longer than anyone else on this particular forum (Didaskalos I may have known longer since he and I were both on this forum from the time of its birth). Bob and I have fought together against heresy hunters and Calvinists and we have disagreed on some issues. When we do, we do so strongly but it does not cause any issues with our friendship.

Amen!

I am pretty busy so I don't have time to respond to every disagreement or correction that some of you want to make to my behavior or my theology. My apologies for that. Take care.

Understood. You have a church family to take care of first and foremost. God bless you, Troy.

 

[hhodgson]

I am pretty busy so I don't have time to respond to every disagreement or correction that some of you want to make to my behavior or my theology. My apologies for that. Take care.

Hi Troy, I want to let you know that you are much appreciated and your teachings are awesome. I don't agree with everything you say about these same issues being brought up, and (same with Did's, ABM, or anyone else for that matter)... but that's not the point of these discussions. We are all here to learn from each other. These kinds of "spirit anointed" (discussions/debates) generates the (true) interest in others participating in the forum and those behind the scenes as (viewers) who want to learn also. Pssst! Don't tell Bob that I don't believe in all what he says either, OK? If you do, I know where you live!

(Keyword): "spirit anointed"

You guys along with our anointed "newcomer" (Simon The Tanner) and others here are apologists who defend the faith in (WOF) as you each teach it. Yes, there will be some disagreements that we (all) can at least agree to disagree on. (did I say that right?) Anyway, You guys have a gift of teaching and have a wealth of knowledge of the Word, that I am in awe of... especially Gxg (G²), for he writes faster than I can read. How does he do it?

As for me, I am not a "teacher" per say. You guys are the best. I am more of an exhorter and peacemaker.

Btw, Troy! Your apology is not accepted, and others I'm sure would agree also. There is no need for that from any of us in this thread that you started. In Post 1, 2, and 3... you left us with a lot to digest, and I believe in God's eyes it is not (just about) any disagreements that may arise. It's (more) about how we handle these disagreements, and I truly believe God imparts just enough knowledge to each of us, (for we all have the mind of Christ), as we each renew our minds with His Word (Romans 12:2) and share in these discussions. No one is 100% correct. We all know that. There are no... know-it-alls. We all know that also, and...

I'll leave that where it is... so enough said there.

Each of our teachings may be spot on, or very close to one another's, and that little bit of difference in disagreement is then left to our "saying and accepting" in LOVE between ourselves that would line up with (Deuteronomy 28:10) as a witness, "to show the world that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will stand in awe of you." I think sometimes we forget or, (do we even really know it), that our ministry here on CF Word-of-Faith is... worldwide (that's how I see it) and has potential to reach numbers that God only knows. Think about it! With the INTERNET today, we all... can have a worldwide ministry. That's awesome!

While closing this Troy, would you believe that (our) potential "worldwide" word-of-faith ministry was on the verge of collapse as was with WOF on CARM, if I can use that as a comparison? Just a few months ago ABM mentioned in a post that this forum was down to just six people or so and only three of them remained active and kept it going. I have been privileged to be here three years and they have been the best years in my Christian walk in growing in the knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Again, you guys are the best and I believe in spite of our differences, God has brought us together in these (final) last days.

Yes, we are all busy as well, with our current ministries, our families, etc. And, we also have our own individual behaviors and theology's in which God is shaping, and re-shaping us all as His end time disciples to prepare the way for His return. Even though we can be extremely busy, God can find a way "where there is no way" for all of us to remain to be a proactive part of this worldwide word-of-faith ministry. Time, as we know is short. My friends, we have been chosen...

Thanks for allowing me to share.

​

 

[now faith]

Hi Troy, I want to let you know that you are much appreciated and your teachings are awesome. I don't agree with everything you say about these same issues being brought up, and (same with Did's, ABM, or anyone else for that matter)... but that's not the point of these discussions. We are all here to learn from each other. These kinds of "spirit anointed" (discussions/debates) generates the (true) interest in others participating in the forum and those behind the scenes as (viewers) who want to learn also. View attachment 168726 Pssst! Don't tell Bob that I don't believe in all what he says either, OK? If you do, I know where you live! View attachment 168729

(Keyword): "spirit anointed"

You guys along with our anointed "newcomer" (Simon The Tanner) and others here are apologists who defend the faith in (WOF) as you each teach it. Yes, there will be some disagreements that we (all) can at least agree to disagree on. (did I say that right?) Anyway, You guys have a gift of teaching and have a wealth of knowledge of the Word, that I am in awe of... especially Gxg (G²), for he writes faster than I can read. How does he do it? View attachment 168731

As for me, I am not a "teacher" per say. You guys are the best. I am more of an exhorter and peacemaker. View attachment 168727

Btw, Troy! Your apology is not accepted, and others I'm sure would agree also. There is no need for that from any of us in this thread that you started. In Post 1, 2, and 3... you left us with a lot to digest, and I believe in God's eyes it is not (just about) any disagreements that may arise. It's (more) about how we handle these disagreements, and I truly believe God imparts just enough knowledge to each of us, (for we all have the mind of Christ), as we each renew our minds with His Word (Romans 12:2) and share in these discussions. No one is 100% correct. We all know that. There are no... know-it-alls. We all know that also, and...

I'll leave that where it is... so enough said there.View attachment 168732

Each of our teachings may be spot on, or very close to one another's, and that little bit of difference in disagreement is then left to our "saying and accepting" in LOVE between ourselves that would line up with (Deuteronomy 28:10) as a witness, "to show the world that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will stand in awe of you." I think sometimes we forget or, (do we even really know it), that our ministry here on CF Word-of-Faith is... worldwide (that's how I see it) and has potential to reach numbers that God only knows. Think about it! With the INTERNET today, we all... can have a worldwide ministry. That's awesome!

While closing this Troy, would you believe that (our) potential "worldwide" word-of-faith ministry was on the verge of collapse as was with WOF on CARM, if I can use that as a comparison? Just a few months ago ABM mentioned in a post that this forum was down to just six people or so and only three of them remained active and kept it going. I have been privileged to be here three years and they have been the best years in my Christian walk in growing in the knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Again, you guys are the best and I believe in spite of our differences, God has brought us together in these (final) last days.

Yes, we are all busy as well, with our current ministries, our families, etc. And, we also have our own individual behaviors and theology's in which God is shaping, and re-shaping us all as His end time disciples to prepare the way for His return. Even though we can be extremely busy, God can find a way "where there is no way" for all of us to remain to be a proactive part of this worldwide word-of-faith ministry. Time, as we know is short. My friends, we have been chosen...

Thanks for allowing me to share. View attachment 168733

View attachment 168734​

Amen Harry ,we have a responsibility to shed the light of the Gospel as it was truly meant to be understood.
Word of Faith teaches full victory in Christ,if the Bible says it then whatever it is we stand in faith on God's Word.

If it is not in the Word but in the World we deny it,we are not teaching incantations or mystic belief we teach Faith in God,through his ever lasting Word.

Our viewers need to know what we teach because they need Faith in God's Word,this world is starting to shake and cry out for a deeper knowledge of Christ.

If we do not do it ,then who will?
The local Church may reach a thousand but it is within our reach to tell hundreds of thousands.
Only believe for more than we thought possible,and it will happen.

 

[hhodgson]

Our viewers need to know what we teach because they need Faith in God's Word,this world is starting to shake and cry out for a deeper knowledge of Christ.

If we do not do it ,then who will?

The local Church may reach a thousand but it is within our reach to tell hundreds of thousands. Only believe for more than we thought possible,and it will happen.

Double Amen... This entire CF Forum is a great witnessing tool in almost every area. For now, (I'll leave further comments about that alone.) Sometimes, when I find time... I will roam in other areas to check out their threads, etc. There are many things that is noticed that one can expound on but the one's that caught my eye was those being involved in hard-core debates. The only thing I will share about that is this... "I thank God our word-of-faith forum has no... "know-it-alls" or, have our own "private interpretations" of scripture meanings. Well, actually we do have one....

....which is our Malaysian friend (de) who has demonstrated off-balance in Logos/rhema at times. I have been reading and viewing his posts in the Malaysian forum for the past several days. Eventually, I will get to all 1800+ and I am note padding several of his comments for future reference to use, if necessary. Btw, in my review of approx. 500 of (de's) posts, I have no overall concerns about him in being a true born-again Christian. He has other believers that are correcting him quite often, especially (one member) who I believe is very gifted in the word. They're not afraid to correct him. Enough of that, for now! (Btw, (de)... we do Love you and know your WOF friendly and do (highly) suggest you to heed those believers that correct you from time to time, especially --> (uw). You know who I'm talking about.

Anyhow John, When two of our best teachers "have at it" as (Bob/Troy) do, I adopted their Love quotes ("say in Love"--"except in Love") back in Post 26 which are absolutely awesome examples of discussion/debate teaching. When these two of our best "have at it", you can just count on the "viewers" to triple or more, and continue to grow. I look to these guys along with some others (here on WOF) and... also, even other WOF members that are not currently active (that will return)... as our leadership that will answer your post quote "if we do not do it, then who will?"

Luke 19:39-40 (ISV)
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, "Teacher, tell your disciples to be quiet." He replied, "I tell you, if they were quiet the stones would cry out!"​

​

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks to @victoryword and @Didaskalos !

I agree with and appreciate your explanations on God and His role in the creation of evil.

Great work!

Thanks for posting and dealing with the difficult passages of scripture and the common misunderstandings found in the body of Christ!

Well done!

Being that you are both published authors, it's a blessing to us here on CF WOF that you share your work with us!

Your works are easy to understand!

God Bless you both!