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---Then he says, TAKE YOUR PICK CALVINISTS!---
I picked that all men went to heaven.
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
The apostle example is irrelevant because the Pharaoh entry in Romans 9 is specifically teaching that God hardened Pharaoh's heart precisely to display his power in him. The apostles hardening is a completely different context that has nothing to do with Paul's teaching in Romans 9.
Well, he says "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."
It sounds pretty clear to me that Peter is teaching they were destined to disobey the word, and the result of that is that they stumble. Look at the grammar. "They stumble because..." is a phrase that means the reason for their stumbling is about to be given. And that reason is "because they disobey the word". And then their disobedience is what they were "destined to do". They were destined to be disobedient, which causes them to stumble.
The Elects squeezed their way through the gate and the goats were left behind.The gate is narrow.........
We translate into English the word "all" the Greek word "pas". Here's the definition of "pas"
1) individually - each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively - some of all types
Where can I find this definition?
Here is the verse.So we see that #2 is a definition just as much as #1. The mistake the video makes (and many objectors to Election/Calvinism make) is ignoring definition #2 and thinking the Bible authors never used it. But we know that is not true at all. Here's just one example:
The love of money is the root of all (pas) evil.
Obviously the love of money is not the root of ALL evil. Adultery for example probably has nothing to do with money in most cases.
1 Tim 6
10For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
The love of money is not the root of all evil but the root of all sorts of evil. Sorry but I could not resist.
The meaning of pas is contextual. One should not go beyond the text to attempt to discern what the original author meant. For example, your assumptions above does not work with Luke 2:10 because the authors message is indeed for "all the peoples" which includes all and everyone.Here's what the Greek Lexicon says as an entry to this word:
The lexicon is quick to point out that the Bible authors used figures of speech many times in their writings. This is not uncommon even today, in English. Here's some examples I can think of:
A teacher says "Everyone, sit down".
Did she mean everyone? Everyone in the entire world, everyone that would ever be born into the human race? No, she means everyone in the smaller group of her class.
The entire city showed up for the football game.
Did the entire city show up? Or is this just a way to say "A bunch of people showed up"
"I use the word "all" all the time!"
No, I don't. I don't use "all" all the time, do I? In this very sentence I used other words, such as "words", "other", "sentence", "very", etc. So I don't use "all" all the time, do I? Even though I said I did!
Is Jesus the savior of the whole world? Yes, He is.
Is Jesus the savior of every single individual that will ever be born into the human race? No.
Both statements are true.
As for the video, the Teacher in the classroom analogy above works pretty well. When an author uses "pas" often he is referring his reader to the group he has already defined. You can see Paul define the two groups he is speaking about in the immediate context. Observe:
(red color is group #1, green color is group #2)
Rom 5:17-19
(17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
(18) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
(19) For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
It's pretty clear that even by using the word "all" (pas) Paul is in no way referring to every single individual in the human race. In the first case (red color) he's referring to all men in Adam. In the second case he's referring to all men in Christ (green color).
Though the men in Adam is the entire human race that's not the way Paul used the word. He used "all" to refer to the specific group of: men in Adam. It just happens to be the entire human race. Then he used the word 'all" to refer to the specific group of: men in Christ. And it happens to be less than the human race.
The Elects squeezed their way through the gate and the goats were left behind.
All minus the goats.
Which came first , the chicken or the egg? God foresaw His vision and His vision wasn't based on what we did down the roads of our lives.
I'm not sure foresaw is the same as foreknowledge. He saw his vision because it WAS His vision. It unfold within itself. The blackhole gobbles everything in itself.
Where can I find this definition?
The love of money is not the root of all evil but the root of all sorts of evil. Sorry but I could not resist.
The meaning of pas is contextual. One should not go beyond the text to attempt to discern what the original author meant. For example, your assumptions above does not work with Luke 2:10 because the authors message is indeed for "all the peoples" which includes all and everyone.
(red color is group #1, green color is group #2)
Rom 5:17-19
(17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
(18) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
(19) For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
It's pretty clear that even by using the word "all" (pas) Paul is in no way referring to every single individual in the human race. In the first case (red color) he's referring to all men in Adam. In the second case he's referring to all men in Christ (green color).
I would say that we are unable to choose salvation unless the Holy Spirit softens our heart to understanding the gospel and orchestrates it so we hear the gospel in the first place. We are unable to take the first step to God, to enter the Holy of Holies, to make a decision to seek out salvation.
God takes the first step toward us. He sent his Son. He loved us first. While dead in sin, we are unable to love God nor do we even think we should.
However, God gave man free will. Even though he took the first step, even though for many, he shows his love and shows his love and they hear the gospel over and over and over again, he will not force them to be saved. They still have the choice to reject the gift of salvation.
God knows who will accept it and who will reject. God is all knowing. To say otherwise denies the very character of God. We are bound by time as humans but God is not. God can look at the entire breadth of history in one glance and from the respect, absolutely knows who, even though he pursues them, will reject him anyway.
Just like we as parents know how our kids will react to things, God knows everything about us, every thought, every cell, everything. How could he not know who will accept and will not.
But, we cannot go out and find salvation on our own. It is the Holy Spirit who draws us to God and who wills us to draw near to him. Otherwise, we are perfectly content to go about our way in death none the wiser.
This is a really huge topic and one that is hard to debate via email. However, whenever a really troubling bit of theology comes up, I am always drawn back to the character of God to help me understand.
Election and predestination has been hotly debated in theological circles for hundreds of years and I have a deep respect for collegues on both sides of the fence. It is good to debate and question.
I read something interesting on "foreknowledge"... here is the link:
What does the Bible teach about election?
CP:
You'll notice that Arminians will tell you that God foresaw faith and then elected on that basis.
But consider the following:
1) Not a single bible verse says such a thing
2) Arminians appeal to verses that say "Elect according to God's foreknowledge" (1 Peter) and "Whom He did foreknow them also did He predestinate.." (Romans 8)
However, Arminians read something in these verses that is not there. The verses do not say that what God foreknew was faith. It says He foreknew the people themselves. Grammatically, the object of God's knowledge in Romans 8:29 is people, not their actions. It says "Whom He did foreknow".
The verse says nothing about God foreknowing faith.
Further we see in Acts that Christ was delivered up "according to the foreknowledge and determinate council of God". So God's foreknowledge is equated with God's "determinate council". Yet again we see in 1 Peter that Christ was "foreknown" by God, but obviously simply we don't say that God simply "knew about" Christ, but that God foreordained Christ. (Thus some translations render the word foreordained).
So we see that God's foreknowledge is causative. It is not some passive gathering of information on God's part (indeed, God cannot learn anything new).
However this is precisely what Arminianism states. That God learned who would believe, because he looked into the future, and made a decision to choose those people.
Yet to summarize:
1) The Bible never says that
2) Foreknowledge is not a passive gathering of information, but causative It is a verb. It is active movement on God's part (Whom He did foreknow, he predestined)
3) Since faith is a gift from God in the first place the only thing God could foreknow about people is faithlessness, not faith. He must give that for it to be so.
This link is to John MacArhthur who is CalvinistHe explains what foreknowledge is (not being what Arminians say it is). Now I'll go and read your reply lol
Eh, I'd say it's fairly debatable WHAT MacArthur REALLY is, despite what he SAYS he is.
I would say that we are unable to choose salvation unless the Holy Spirit softens our heart to understanding the gospel and orchestrates it so we hear the gospel in the first place. We are unable to take the first step to God, to enter the Holy of Holies, to make a decision to seek out salvation.
God takes the first step toward us. He sent his Son. He loved us first. While dead in sin, we are unable to love God nor do we even think we should.
However, God gave man free will. Even though he took the first step, even though for many, he shows his love and shows his love and they hear the gospel over and over and over again, he will not force them to be saved. They still have the choice to reject the gift of salvation.
God knows who will accept it and who will reject. God is all knowing. To say otherwise denies the very character of God. We are bound by time as humans but God is not. God can look at the entire breadth of history in one glance and from the respect, absolutely knows who, even though he pursues them, will reject him anyway.
Just like we as parents know how our kids will react to things, God knows everything about us, every thought, every cell, everything. How could he not know who will accept and will not.
But, we cannot go out and find salvation on our own. It is the Holy Spirit who draws us to God and who wills us to draw near to him. Otherwise, we are perfectly content to go about our way in death none the wiser.
I just thought of something.
If ANY man thirst, let him come unto me.
Is is possible, that this verse doesn't mean if any of the elect, because there is not "if" about it. The elect WILL thirst. Perhaps its saying exactly what its saying, but the point is, only the elect will thirst and so, any of them can come unto him. A dead person will not thirst. Just a thought
I think your conclusion is accurate. You have to remember that in a practical sense, in regular conversation, it makes more sense to say "if anyone is willing, come", than it does to go into a 2 hour explanation about theology
Sinners need the gospel. They need to be told that they come to Jesus. They need to be told that he is there waiting for them if they ever desire to go. They don't need doctrine about election and predestination.
Just google "greek pas".
You'll notice that the word "sorts" doesn't exist in the original writings. Modern translations added it precisely for the reason I laid out in my post
Luk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
I must disagree with you brother. Obviously the Pharisees and Herod for example did not find great joy in the birth of Christ. Hence, yet again, "all" doesn't' really mean every single individual, does it?
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