Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

RobertZ said:

I just thought about something else, what about God not being a respecter of persons?

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The context in Romans 2 is that God doesn't respect the Jews just because of their heritage and lineage.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

RobertZ said:

I would say that is probably correct although I struggle DEEPLY with wondering if I am elect or not.

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Robert, why in the world would you struggle with whether you're elect or not?

An unsaved person could care less if they are elect or not.

CoconutPrincess said:

Robert, why in the world would you struggle with whether you're elect or not?

An unsaved person could care less if they are elect or not.

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That is true.

RobertZ said:

I would like to think so and I certainly hope so.

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Trust Him brother. He knows.

RobertZ said:

I would like to think so and I certainly hope so.

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Yes, I truly believe so Robert. It's possible that satan uses this to discourage you. If you examine yourself and see you are in the faith, then you have to be elect in order to be in the faith

RobertZ said:

Im sure both of you are probably right, I just have a lot of issues some spiritual and some mental such as anxiety and depression.

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I will pray for you Robert Just rest in His love and know you are elect, otherwise, you wouldn't even desire Him.

RobertZ said:

Is that correct? I know we are dead in our sins and trespasses but how does that take away our responsibility to either corporate or resist the work of the Holy Spirit? Yes we are dead in our sins but when God awakens a sinner by calling him the sinner then has the responsibility to either accept or reject the call right? So God calls and then its up to us to respond?

I know that a whole lot of Calvinist have even said themselves that not everyone awakened by the Holy Spirit is saved, some are awakened yet they go back to sleep in their slumber and I have to ask how would that even be possible unless the person who goes back to sleep chooses to do so?

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How does one explain God's Omnipresence and the meaning of being in the past, present and future at the same time?

ThePresbyteers said:

How does one explain God's Omnipresence and the meaning of being in the past, present and future at the same time?

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One doesn't. Nothing in our experience equips us to understand such a state.

Why do we pray for others to be saved, our loved ones, our friends? What's the point?

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Sister, let me reverse the question back on you. (or back on someone that believes in "free will salvation"). What's the point of praying to God, asking him to save our loved ones, if God is helpless to save them, because it is ultimately up to their own free will and choice? If it's ultimately up to them, we should spend less time praying for God to effectually save them and more time trying to 'persuade' their wills to make some kind of decision. Prayer is meaningless if it's up to the person and not up to God.

But since it's up to God, thats exactly why we pray!

And why bother preaching the gospel?

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The gospel is the tool that God has fixed into place that He has ordained as a means to accomplish His ends. Also, because Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel

What if my child is not chosen to be saved...

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Only God knows who he has chosen. Charles Spurgeon famously said "If all the elect had a yellow stripe painted down their back I would run around lifting up shirt tails!". The fact is, God has not revealed this information to us. He has simply told us "Go and preach the gospel to every creature". We do the preaching, God will do the rest. He will make sure that every single one of His elect hears the message and responds. God has a 100% success rate in salvation! Or in other words, we plant the seed, but only God can give the increase. It's God's job to do conversion, it's our job to preach the message.

Also, why did He choose me?

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He chose you to remove any room for you to boast. In other words, if you had chosen him, you would have room to boast ("I was smart enough to choose God when my neighbor wasn't") But God chose us precisely to strip us of room to boast. Observe:

1Co 1:26-31
(26) For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
(27) But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
(28) God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
(29) so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
(30) And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
(31) so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

I'm nothing special and secondly,

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That's exactly the point that the above passage is making. If you were special enough to be chosen, you'd have room to boast! (in your special-ness)

can someone wan to be saved but not be chosen?

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All men by nature do not desire God, nor do they seek him! Rather, He seeks us!

I just thought about something else, what about God not being a respecter of persons?

Good point... maybe in the context of, he does not favor one of His own over another of His own.

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That's the point of 1 Cor. he chose what is weak, foolish, and lowly. Not what is "special" and "cool". He is not a respector of persons (or their attributes!)

CoconutPrincess said:

Thank you for these. I just finished listening to both. He makes alot of sense and I can see his 14 points of what is wrong with universal atonement.

I still don't know... there are other scriptures like, for God so loved the WORLD, willing that NONE should perish... how do those scriptures fit in?

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World does not mean all mankind. Nor does all mean all mankind. It refers explicitly to Christians of all time. Whether Jew or Gentile, whether farmer, or tax collector, whether King, or peasant. I am sure you're also wondering, "but it says, 'whosoever' in John 3:16." It does. But the word whosoever is the same word for all. In other words, John 3:16 is simply saying that the world will believe and be saved, but that world cannot be all people, but only the elect. Let me give you an example:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)

Yet all men are not saved.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (KJV)

Now, before you comment on this verse, it should be noted that the word might is not in the original documents. That is, it better reads, "but that the world through him be saved." Thus, if the world is saved through Him, why are some still damned?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (KJV)

So, will all be saved? No. Therefore, we can assume, that all, implied the elect of all time.

faceofbear said:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] For God so loved the world…
The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, (John 6:33,51) ; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see (Romans 11:12,15) (1 John 2:2) (Luke 12:30) , compared with (Matthew 6:32) . The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``"let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, (Isaiah 43:9) (say F2 the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And again F3, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``There is a place (they say F4,) the name of which is "Hadrach", (Zechariah 9:1) . This is the King Messiah, who is, (Krw) (dx) , "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And so of the "sun of righteousness", in (Malachi 4:2) , they say F5, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And that F6 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And on those words in (Isaiah 21:12) , "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe F7, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And again F8, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, (Isaiah 60:2) .'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] Once more F9, [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, (Isaiah 43:3) .'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] To which may be added that denunciation of theirs F11 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] ``woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?'' [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews, [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] that he gave his only begotten Son;
to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] that whosoever believeth in him,
whether Jew or Gentile, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] should not perish, but have everlasting life;[/FONT]\
-John Gill Commentary

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World does not mean all mankind. Nor does all mean all mankind. It refers explicitly to Christians of all time. Whether Jew or Gentile, whether farmer, or tax collector, whether King, or peasant. I am sure you're also wondering, "but it says, 'whosoever' in John 3:16." It does. But the word whosoever is the same word for all. In other words, John 3:16 is simply saying that the world will believe and be saved, but that world cannot be all people, but only the elect. Let me give you an example:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)

Yet all men are not saved.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (KJV)

Now, before you comment on this verse, it should be noted that the word might is not in the original documents. That is, it better reads, "but that the world through him be saved." Thus, if the world is saved through Him, why are some still damned?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (KJV)

So, will all be saved? No. Therefore, we can assume, that all, implied the elect of all time.

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Gill has some truth but as a proponent of double predestination proved that some of his conclusions are erroneous. If you agree with the implication then that the only ones saved are the elect then you have to also, by implication, agree that all that are not saved are elected to destruction. That is not biblical.

Robert,

Did you read that book yet?

Hentenza said:

Gill has some truth but as a proponent of double predestination proved that some of his conclusions are erroneous. If you agree with the implication then that the only ones saved are the elect then you have to also, by implication, agree that all that are not saved are elected to destruction. That is not biblical.

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I believe that man in their freewill continually and will only continually reject the Gospel because they are slaves to sin, unless, God purchased them with the blood of Christ and caused them to be alive. If this means I believe in double predestination, so be it.