Yikes! Hope your feeling better, and your back surgery goes well!!Thanks for your response. I will reply on Sunday. Not feeling well. Got knee surgery, and I'm pending back surgery. Please don't think I am dodging or avoiding you. I have replied to half of what you said, and saved it, so I can come back and finish it.
Again, this notion of "earning" is a "Straw Man". It isn't possible to "earn" infinity!!
Your claim is incorrect. Paul never uses the word "works" alone in Galations ... he uses the phrase "works of the law", (other than in Gal 5, discussing the works of the flesh, which NO ONE claims leads to salvation). Paul was combating those who were demanding obedience to the Mosaic Law.
NEVER does Paul conclude "it cannot be both", in fact the word "both" is never used in Galatians.
Again, you are arguing against the notion of "EARNING" salvation, because you aren't listening.
I am already convinced man cannot "EARN" salvation!
This discussion is about the NECESSITY of works, NOT that works EARN salvation.
A great analogy is, getting a Social Security number does NOT "EARN" you a check. But you have NO chance of getting a Social Security check without one! You MUST do the "works" of getting a number, that does NOT mean you have EARNED anything.
You correctly included my points in quotes .... and then you artificially truncated my points in your comment!
You then quote Galatians 2 ... so I emphasized the "of the law" phrase that clarifies Paul's point;
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works .......
of the law
...... but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works
of the law,
because by works
of the law
no one will be justified.
This verse doesn't help your point.
What the Church has traditionally taught is that we're judged on our love. God judges by the heart and He, alone, knows how well we've embraced and grown in this virtue which faith is expected to lead and blossom into. Love fulfills the law; love is the means and expression of living in the Spirit. When Matt 25:31-46 gives criteria by which the sheep and goats are separated, again, they're being judged on their love, born out by how they treated "the least of these". Obedience is genuine and achievable only when it flows forth from love.Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.
Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?
Does Christ save only those who obey the law?
And that's only because God defines obedience by the term "love". When we love we don't even need to hear commandments- the Law. Our lives are obedient by nature. This is what it means to be "under grace", to "live by the Spirit", to be holy.If works are not necessary to attain salvation, what are they necessary for and how are they defined for us? The Old Testament is precise in its commandments, but the New Testament is amazingly fuzzy in that the commandments are not neatly spelled out.
And that's only because God defines obedience by the term "love". When we love we don't even need to hear commandments- the Law. Our lives are obedient by nature. This is what it means to be "under grace", to "live by the Spirit", to be holy.
"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:10
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6
I still like the way Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century believer, put it:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
I am not sure how you got the impression from my post that works are not necessary. I believe works ARE necessary.If works are not necessary to attain salvation, what are they necessary for and how are they defined for us? The Old Testament is precise in its commandments, but the New Testament is amazingly fuzzy in that the commandments are not neatly spelled out.
I am not sure how you got the impression from my post that works are not necessary. I believe works ARE necessary.
The only Law that is "neatly spelled out" in the OT is the Mosaic Law.
Very little is known about the laws prior to the Flood, other than there were commandments regarding diet ("herbs only"), commandments regarding sacrifice, (which Able obeyed, and Cain didn't), and violence, (Jehovah condemned Cain's murder of Able as sin).
Very little is known about the laws following the Flood, other than ALL flesh was allowed, blood was not, and man was commanded to avenge murder.
The NT law is intentionally more flexible in several ways, since it is designed to guide believers living in ANY nation on the planet. This is VERY different than the Mosaic Law, which was designed to guide both the government of Israel, AND the individuals within that nation.
You specifically stated that you do not believe that works are necessary for salvation. In post #232 you wrote -
"I am already convinced man cannot "EARN" salvation!
"This discussion is about the NECESSITY of works, NOT that works EARN salvation."
If, as I read you now, you do believe that works are necessary for salvation, how many works are needed?
Re-read your statement here. Your claim is NOT accurate.You specifically stated that you do not believe that works are necessary for salvation. In post #232 you wrote -
"I am already convinced man cannot "EARN" salvation!
"This discussion is about the NECESSITY of works, NOT that works EARN salvation."
There is no number given. There are specific works mentioned, like baptism into the true Christ, loving and diligently seeking God, obeying the commandments Jehovah gave Jesus to teach all his followers.bbbbbbb said:If, as I read you now, you do believe that works are necessary for salvation, how many works are needed?
Re-read your statement here. Your claim is NOT accurate.
There is a HUGE difference between;
"... man cannot "EARN" salvation.
and;
"works are not necessary".
Man ABSOLUTELY MUST do works!!! But, those works CANNOT "EARN" salvation.
There is no number given. There are specific works mentioned, like baptism into the true Christ, loving and diligently seeking God, obeying the commandments Jehovah gave Jesus to teach all his followers.
Not at all.
That's kinda like saying a car must absolutely have gas to operate, but gas is not necessary.
Not at all.
It's like saying you MUST have a lottery ticket to win, but having a lottery ticket doesn't EARN the jackpot.
Re-read your statement here. Your claim is NOT accurate.
There is a HUGE difference between;
"... man cannot "EARN" salvation.
and;
"works are not necessary".
Man ABSOLUTELY MUST do works!!! But, those works CANNOT "EARN" salvation.
There is no number given. There are specific works mentioned, like baptism into the true Christ, loving and diligently seeking God, obeying the commandments Jehovah gave Jesus to teach all his followers.
Do you love each and every person just as you love yourself?
Actually loving others as much as yourself is doable and observable/verifiable:
Matthew 19:21
21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
However you have to be sure you got what it takes:
Luke 14:28
28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
And if you don't you should ask for terms of peace:
Luke 14:31
32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
Else you'll regret halfway through and end up like this:
Acts 5:5
5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
That would be a lack of works, and he would get nothing. (2 Peter 2:20-22)What if the man does nothing to pick up is winnings?
Correct. Again, that is works. Without it, there is NO way to win the jackpot. Just because you have a ticket, doesn't mean you have EARNED the prize. Even if you WIN the prize, you haven't EARNED it, you have merely met the requirements.EmSw said:Having the winning lottery ticket means the man did something to get that winning ticket.
When I do, that is works. Even if I am perfect at loving others, just as I love myself, I have not EARNED infinite life.Do you love each and every person just as you love yourself?Dartman said:Re-read your statement here. Your claim is NOT accurate.
There is a HUGE difference between;
"... man cannot "EARN" salvation.
and;
"works are not necessary".
Man ABSOLUTELY MUST do works!!! But, those works CANNOT "EARN" salvation.
There is no number given. There are specific works mentioned, like baptism into the true Christ, loving and diligently seeking God, obeying the commandments Jehovah gave Jesus to teach all his followers.
That would be a lack of works, and he would get nothing. (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Correct. Again, that is works. Without it, there is NO way to win the jackpot. Just because you have a ticket, doesn't mean you have EARNED the prize. Even if you WIN the prize, you haven't EARNED it, you have merely met the requirements.
Now, do you still have questions about the difference between "earning" and "works"?
Please note that I did not ask you if you think it is possible. I asked you, "Do you love each and every person just as you love yourself?"
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