Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

pescador said:

Because you can't understand it doesn't mean it can't be defended. I have explained it as carefully and thoroughly as I can.

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I understand your error quite clearly.... no matter how many times, or how carefully you explain it, it's still wrong.

Dartman said:

I understand your error quite clearly.... no matter how many times, or how carefully you explain it, it's still wrong.

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According to you, but I don't accept your authority on the subject. I won't argue with you. You go your (erroneous) way and I'll go mine.

EmSw said:

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So, we have a person, from self admission, who hates God, hates his neighbor, is a murderer, is an adulterer, is a liar, and a thief writing this.

And this is what you are holding to, ladodger? Just goes to show, some people will believe anything, even from a professed liar.

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Thank you for your kind word of encouragement. You are so Christ-like. These kind words show you are a person of God who loves God and their neighbor!

I am a wretched sinner who need a Savior, a Redeemer, a Messiah, a Pascal Lamb to save me. Luke 18,


18And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 23But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

This ruler ask Jesus, how do I inherit eternal life? Keep the commandments, Jesus told this ruler. The Ruler replies by saying that he has kept them since his youth. But Jesus knows that he has not, drives home a point. And tells him sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor (Love your neighbor), and follow me, (Love God). These two commandments love your neighbor and God,sum up the commandments. And if this Ruler did indeed keep the commandments he would not any problem doing what Jesus ask of him.

But in Christ I persevere to the end because of what He accomplished for me. I walk in holiness because of the Spirit in me. But the flesh still rages war against the Spirit (Galatians 6).

ladodgers6 said:

Thank you for your kind word of encouragement. You are so Christ-like. These kind words show you are a person of God who loves God and their neighbor!

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I'm sorry. I don't follow anyone who has never kept the commandments of Jesus. And I sure don't believe his words.

ladodgers6 said:

I am a wretched sinner who need a Savior, a Redeemer, a Messiah, a Pascal Lamb to save me. Luke 18,

The Rich Ruler​

18And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 23But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

This ruler ask Jesus, how do I inherit eternal life? Keep the commandments, Jesus told this ruler. The Ruler replies by saying that he has kept them since his youth. But Jesus knows that he has not, drives home a point. And tells him sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor (Love your neighbor), and follow me, (Love God). These two commandments love your neighbor and God,sum up the commandments. And if this Ruler did indeed keep the commandments he would not any problem doing what Jesus ask of him.

But in Christ I persevere to the end because of what He accomplished for me. I walk in holiness because of the Spirit in me. But the flesh still rages war against the Spirit (Galatians 6).

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But the guy you quoted acknowledged he has never kept the two great commandments.

Now, do you believe Jesus when He said to inherit eternal life, keep the commandments?

EmSw said:

I'm sorry. I don't follow anyone who has never kept the commandments of Jesus. And I sure don't believe his words.

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So that I understand you correctly. You do not sin at all. Even though you judge others? Is that right?

But the guy you quoted acknowledged he has never kept the two great commandments.

Now, do you believe Jesus when He said to inherit eternal life, keep the commandments?

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Christ is preaching Law here. Christ is making a point here to this Ruler. That he did not keep the commandments from his youth. Because if he did, he would sell everything he has and give the proceeds to the poor, and follow Christ! The Law exposes our sin and need for a Savior. The law drives sinners to Christ, because the Law only condemns us. And the only place we can find refuge is in the Messiah who saves sinners!

QUOTE="EmSw, post: 71561960, member: 351959"]I sure hope that receiving rewards isn't your motivation for doing good.

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God bless you, bother. Excellent point.
Not at all. I am not even that intelligent to be that dangerous to myself. God got a hold of me very early and EVERY time I have EVER tried to do anything for personal gain it has had punishing c consequences. My father was rich and I saw right thru it despite my insatiable depravity. My self d u discipline is SOLEY the work of the Holy Spirit. I have free will, and every time I exercise it, it is a character building experience. God bless you again.

You need to read the entire chapter to get the context of building upon the foundation.

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That is true., especially the beginning where intent might be stated.

If anyone endures this fire, the person who built will receive a reward, and if anyone does not endure, he will suffer loss. Even though his work (the person he built upon the foundation) is burned by fire, the builder himself will be saved, because his salvation is not dependent upon the actions and deeds of what he built (people)..

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Right on.
Sorry for my brevity it's midnight here, now.

pescador said:

1 John 1 was written to non-Christians. There is absolutely no need for Christians to confess our sins and beg for forgiveness! If we are not forgiven then Jesus died for nothing!

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From the text it seems the Apostle John's audiences in 1 John were those denying the Incarnation - that the Lord Jesus came in the flesh. This erroneous belief did not deny that the Christ had come but held that the Christ was a transient apparition of the divine nature. This idea would be consistent with the Greek philosophy of the day.

The Apostle John is writing to people who had made a commitment to be Christian but who explained the nature of Christ in a theology using erroneous ideas.

This example in 1 John ought to caution all Christians who are raised in a culture where the prevailing philosophy is inconsistent with biblical philosophical ideas (That would be all). It is difficult not to read the Bible without seeing the meaning through ones preconceived ideas about reality. Usually, one will think his view is the biblical one when in practice it is some part of the western philosophical tradition which is used to explain their theology.

ladodgers6 said:

So that I understand you correctly. You do not sin at all. Even though you judge others? Is that right?

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So, to justify this guy who has never obeyed any of God's ten commandments, you are going to turn it back on me.

NOPE! It's not going to happen. I don't have to judge this guy; he admits his guilt from his own mouth.

Have you kept any of the ten commandments? Or, like this guy, you have never kept any?

ladodgers6 said:

Christ is preaching Law here. Christ is making a point here to this Ruler. That he did not keep the commandments from his youth. Because if he did, he would sell everything he has and give the proceeds to the poor, and follow Christ! The Law exposes our sin and need for a Savior. The law drives sinners to Christ, because the Law only condemns us. And the only place we can find refuge is in the Messiah who saves sinners!

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Jesus didn't say he was lying. Where did you get that? Is this something you made up? Is this something you have added to justify your doctrine?

The law gives life; it exposes that which kills - our sins. It shows the need to quit sinning. The law condemns no one; sin condemns.

According to your view, when God says to love Him and your neighbor, it condemns a person. What a pathetic view.

EmSw said:

So, to justify this guy who has never obeyed any of God's ten commandments, you are going to turn it back on me.

NOPE! It's not going to happen. I don't have to judge this guy; he admits his guilt from his own mouth.

Have you kept any of the ten commandments? Or, like this guy, you have never kept any?

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Are you aware, that if you break one commandment, you break all of them? Please provide the passage where he admits his guilt from his own mouth?

So here's the Ruler response to what Christ told him to do. 23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Your take on this?

Jesus didn't say he was lying. Where did you get that? Is this something you made up? Is this something you have added to justify your doctrine?

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Instead of being quick to judge others. Why don't you ask before you start picking the splinter out of my eye, take the pole out of yours. Here you go to answer your false accusations.

James 2:10 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

The law gives life; it exposes that which kills - our sins. It shows the need to quit sinning. The law condemns no one; sin condemns.

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The Law condemns sinners!

The Law does not give Life to sinners, only death! Read Galatians 2:16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Here more man made Scripture, Romans 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,

According to your view, when God says to love Him and your neighbor, it condemns a person. What a pathetic view.

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Wow! Please show me, where I even suggested such a thing? You speak of perfectly obeying God's Law, without a single blemish of sin? But you are quick to cut people down? Go figure!

ladodgers6 said:

Are you aware, that if you break one commandment, you break all of them? Please provide the passage where he admits his guilt from his own mouth?

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I've already posted where, but since you've seem to have forgotten, I'll repost it.

from your post #142 -
A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have NEVER kept any of them, and am still inclined to all evil,

What part of 'have NEVER kept any of them' do you not understand?

ladodgers6 said:

So here's the Ruler response to what Christ told him to do. 23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Your take on this?

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Let's see the rest of the story.

Matthew 19
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

This might get long, but bear with me. First, Jesus told him, 'if you want to be perfect'. Strong's says this about perfect -

1. that which is perfect
   1. consummate human integrity and virtue
   2. of men
      1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

It's becoming a mature adult, full grown, with integrity and virtue. As we all know, most people who are rich, but not all, become greedy, selfish, and use their riches for themselves. I've seen stories on people who won the lottery, and spend money on homes, cars, jewelry, and the finer things in life on themselves. There are those who won the lottery and spend the money on others, helping other in need. These are the ones with integrity and virtue, giving to the poor.

This is also loving the neighbor. They didn't just say, be filled, which is faith alone. They actually gave something to the poor to 'fill their stomachs'. They became a use for those less fortunate. This is faith plus good works.

Remember the rich man and Lazarus? The rich had his luxury and finer things in life, but did not help Lazarus. Remember what Abraham brought up on the other side? He told the rich man he had received his good things during lifetime and Lazarus had evil things. Now he was tormented and Lazarus was comforted.

Then Jesus told this parable of this rich man.

Luke 12
16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully.
17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’
18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’
20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”

Instead of helping the poor with his abundance, this rich man built bigger barns for himself. He said to his soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Now eat, drink, and be merry.

Jesus said the one who lays up treasure for himself is not rich toward God. Does all this mean rich people will not enter the kingdom of Heaven? No. It's the rich who live for themselves, and do not help the poor with their earthly blessings. Because of greed and selfishness, it is hard for rich people to enter the kingdom, but not impossible.

ladodgers6 said:

Instead of being quick to judge others. Why don't you ask before you start picking the splinter out of my eye, take the pole out of yours. Here you go to answer your false accusations.

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Again, the guy you quoted, has condemned himself with his own words. By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.

ladodgers6 said:

James 2:10

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ladodgers6 said:

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
The Law condemns sinners!

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Have you not read this Proverb?

Proverbs 13:14
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death.

Only to the wise is the law a fountain of life. So I ask, is the law condemnation to you?

ladodgers6 said:

The Law does not give Life to sinners, only death! Read Galatians 2:16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Here more man made Scripture, Romans 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,

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So, when Jesus says to keep the commandments, He is pronouncing death and condemnation on people? John says those born of God keep His commandments. If they don't keep them, they do not know Him, and they are liars.

James says we are justified by works, and not faith only. It's those who do not keep His commandments who are condemned. You have it backwards.

ladodgers6 said:

Wow! Please show me, where I even suggested such a thing? You speak of perfectly obeying God's Law, without a single blemish of sin? But you are quick to cut people down? Go figure!

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I said, 'According to your view, when God says to love Him and your neighbor, it condemns a person. What a pathetic view.' And then you say above, 'The Law does not give Life to sinners, only death!' Do you even know what you are saying?[/quote]

I'll leave you with this. Christ is our 'once and all' justification before God through Faith Alone! This is a 'One-Time Act' of justification in Christ, because Christ Himself earned it through His perfect righteousness & holiness for us!

Romans 3:21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
The idea that Justification by faith is the standing or falling article of the church is typically associated with Martin Luther. It is also, surely, the standing or falling article of the individual Christian. The strength or weakness of our grasp of justification by faith is integrally related to our freedom and joy in Christ.
Free justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone lies at the heart of the application of redemption. The faith that unites us to Christ also sucks in every spiritual blessing in Him: peace with God, exultation in the hope of the glory of God, in tribulation, and even in God Himself. There is no condemnation for the believer, no prison-cell existence. For what the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God has done! He sent His Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin, and for Him o condemn sin in the flesh so that the righteous requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in them. The spirit of bondage is gone!

Earlier in his argument in Romans, Paul had employed an intriguing piece of the Gospel logic:

The answer here is, surely, yes. For Paul has been insisting that boasting is excluded because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot justify ourselves by our works. We have broken God's Law, whether the Law embedded in God's image at creation or the Law revealed at Sinai.

So it id true that boasting is excluded by the principle of works; we have no works that are able to ground our boasting.

But, in the event, this is not the answer Paul gives, because it is not the logic he uses in this context:

ladodgers6 said:

I'll leave you with this. Christ is our 'once and all' justification before God through Faith Alone! This is a 'One-Time Act' of justification in Christ, because Christ Himself earned it through His perfect righteousness & holiness for us!

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It appears you are confusing two issues.
It IS true Jesus' was 100% successful on HIS part.
It is NOT true that Jesus' act is ALL that's required.
The individual MUST believe, repent and obey, for Christ's act to cover them!
AND, if that individual then SINS, they must repent, and in prayer ask for forgiveness.

Dartman said:

It appears you are confusing two issues.
It IS true Jesus' was 100% successful on HIS part.
It is NOT true that Jesus' act is ALL that's required.
The individual MUST believe, repent and obey, for Christ's act to cover them!
AND, if that individual then SINS, they must repent, and in prayer ask for forgiveness.

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John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

​

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I beg to differ. You obviously did not understand what I presented here. Grace is given, not earned. Because even our Faith is a gift from God. And repentance is the fruit of Faith.

What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? (1 Cor. 4:7).

EmSw said:

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Paul throws up a straw man, and then proceeds to beat it unmercifully. No one has boasted about being justified by works (the only boasting about God's work I've read about were those of the Pharisees and Paul himself). And then, you take that straw man and beat it yourself, thinking you have done something great.

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Huh? Do you even know what Paul is about here. Because Paul use too be a Pharisee, correct? Did Paul not kill and persecute Christians? You have no clue of what Paul speaks of here, do you?

If I said no one is predestined to salvation by faith. For then boasting would run rampant among the saints. Would you say I haven't boasted about that? I say yes, for boasting about being in God's favor would be your constant companion. Everyone who believes in predestination boasts of their favor with God.

Yes I know, what a silly straw man, but yet you believe Paul's straw man.

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You are stuck on predestination, instead of Christ who came to save the ungodly!

And you take Paul's straw man, give it life, and then strangle it with ease. You should be proud of yourself. Maybe you should try out for the next cast of Wizard of Oz. Then you have all day and night to beat up a straw man.

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No comment.

Soyeong said:

The Law was given to instruct us how to live according to the attributes of God. For example, it teaches us how to reflect God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12). So the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness to be temporary is if God's righteousness is also temporary, but God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so therefore also are all of His righteous laws (Psalms 119:160). The Law could not accomplish the work of Christ because it was never given to accomplish that in the first place.

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Quote by Soyeong, ". . . the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness to be temporary is if God's righteousness is also temporary . . . "

Do you contend that if the old convent/law are temporary, then God’s righteousness is temporary?

Of course, you have equated the definition of the law with "the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness." The old scribe asks you to reconsider this because of the following:

Question #1

Would this mean when in Hebrews 7 & 10 where it speaks of the law as imperfect it also would attribute the same imperfection to the righteousness of God?

Question #2

Hebrews speaks of a better covenant (Hebrews 7:22; 8:6); the first covenant not being faultless (Hebrews 8:7): the old covenant being obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

Do you believe the old covenant/law/and “the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness” are equated to God’s righteousness, then God’s righteousness is not the better covenant, is also with fault, and is obsolete?

Of course you don't!

ladodgers6 said:

Dartman said:

It appears you are confusing two issues.
It IS true Jesus' was 100% successful on HIS part.
It is NOT true that Jesus' act is ALL that's required.
The individual MUST believe, repent and obey, for Christ's act to cover them!
AND, if that individual then SINS, they must repent, and in prayer ask for forgiveness.
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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I beg to differ. You obviously did not understand what I presented here. Grace is given, not earned. Because even our Faith is a gift from God. And repentance is the fruit of Faith.

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You are making another mistake.

I am not claiming, nor have I ever claimed, that there is\was a way to EARN grace, faith or salvation.

But the Scriptures CLEARLY teach, the individual MUST choose to believe, love, and obey ... or those offered gifts will NOT produce eternal life.

According to John 3, it is the choice to believe, or NOT, that determines who is condemned, and who gets eternal life.

But, AGAIN, belief doesn't EARN eternal life!!

[QUOTE="ladodgers6, post: [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="EmSw, post: [/quote][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Dartman, post: [/QUOTE]

Quit it! You are splitting hairs and picking fights.
Where is your disagreement except in wanting to be the one who gets it right.
Did I wrongly supposed this was a Christian forum?

"Christian" ? or 'Christian' ? or Ekklesia ? Test Everything by YHWH's WORD.

Soyeong said:

The Law was given to instruct us how to live according to the attributes of God. For example, it teaches us how to reflect God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12). So the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness to be temporary is if God's righteousness is also temporary, but God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so therefore also are all of His righteous laws (Psalms 119:160). The Law could not accomplish the work of Christ because it was never given to accomplish that in the first place.

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I beg to differ. It was given to the first Adam in the Covenant of Works. With conditions to fulfill it through Perfect Righteousness, and with sanctions of curse for disobedience and blessings with Obedience; Tree of Life.