Does free will exist?

[elopez]

I believe in a type of free will. I think we are ultimately responsible for our actions, and that responsibility consists of two essential things that in the end explains human free will. The first thing that makes one accountable is our mental competence, in that we understand what we are doing and why. The second is our ability to actually carry out what we want to do, without anyone or anything forcing or preventing us from acting.

Those two ideas define free will, since moral responsibility is intertwined with free will. This is not a libertarian type free will, but of a compatibilist, as in determinism and free will are not mutually exlcusive. There is only one possible future for you, me, and the whole universe, but we influence the future with our wants and needs and by acting on them.

 

[Ken-1122]

Do you think free will exists? If so, which form of free will do you believe in?

Sorry if there's already a thread like this. The search function yielded nothing, at least for me.

I will elaborate on my position later. Don't have the time to do so right now.

I believe I have free will to the extent the law of the land allows. I believe this because I have no reason to believe otherwise
I am not familiar with the various forms of freewill you might be speaking of.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

If I choose to pick up a pen there is a reason I choose that. Those reasons will eventually be followed back to circumstances outside my control or prior states of mind. Those prior states of mind will be follow back until my birth. At that point I can't be considered free; therefore the first decision I make is made because of a state of mind outside my control and because of stimuli outside my control.

I don't understand what you are saying. Would you mind providing an example of how picking up a pen is outside your control?

Ken

 

[juvenissun]

Because the final choice will still be determined by all the factors involved.
As has been the entire back and forth with the decision, the considerations and the reconsiderings.

But if the choice is between 50/50, then who get to make the decision?

 

[juvenissun]

If I choose to pick up a pen there is a reason I choose that. Those reasons will eventually be followed back to circumstances outside my control or prior states of mind. Those prior states of mind will be follow back until my birth. At that point I can't be considered free; therefore the first decision I make is made because of a state of mind outside my control and because of stimuli outside my control.

Imagine a hard T/F question which you have no idea on what the answer should be. Then who makes the choice? The current you? The past you? or the future you? or not you?

 

[Rubiks]

Consider this, a man cannot commit suicide by holding his breath, he'll pass out and start breathing again.

I think this clearly shows man has [some] free will

What evolutionary purpose does it have for man to commit suicide?

 

[The Engineer]

I don't understand what you are saying. Would you mind providing an example of how picking up a pen is outside your control?

If she picks up a pen, even if she seemingly does it at random, it's because of how her brain is wired, which is predetermined. I wouldn't say that's outside her control, just that there could not have been another outcome.

But if the choice is between 50/50, then who get to make the decision?

Still the brain.

Imagine a hard T/F question which you have no idea on what the answer should be. Then who makes the choice? The current you? The past you? or the future you? or not you?

Her current self will make the decision. Doesn't mean all the properties of her current self aren't predetermined by her environment and her past selves.

Consider this, a man cannot commit suicide by holding his breath, he'll pass out and start breathing again.

I think this clearly shows man has [some] free will

How's that? All this shows is that man doesn't have complete control over his body.

What evolutionary purpose does it have for man to commit suicide?

If the weakest members of the group kill themselves, the stronger ones can probably survive better. That's a conceivable evolutionary purpose, but I doubt it's the reason why humans commit suicide. Humans haven't exactly gotten the fastest reproduction rate, and adolescence lasts very long for us. In short, no real evolutionary purpose.

I'd rather call it a side effect. Evolution caused humans to become smarter and more in control of their primitive urges, including the urge to survive. As such, humans are smart enough to conceive of death as an escape from existence itself, in case they get sick of existence.

It's the same with art. Art doesn't increase our survival value at all, yet we love it and we create it. Our love for art serves no evolutionary purpose, it's simply a part of our nature, which was created by evolution.

 

[quatona]

But if the choice is between 50/50, then who get to make the decision?

The question was not "Who makes the decision?" but "Is the decision free?".

 

[eckhart]

Free Will in four points:
1. Free will is a distinguishing feature from autonomous beings (we have a certain worth). It is a highly praised social and political value.
2. We understand that people are responsible for what they do (certain exceptions), and must be held accountable
3. We have importance on actions and what we do can make a difference. There is a point of doing one thing rather than another
4. As agents, initating events in the world, rather than merely passively reacting to the word, we have certain dignity.
Criticism:
The traditional theological problem of free will -
God punishes and rewards, which implies that we are free. (God is omniscent)
God knows what we are going to do before we do it which implies we are not free.
(Are we held responsible?) We have free will but are we conscious. ?

I still believe we are free, and have free will. Consciousness, what sets us apart from animals and enables us to think deeply, plays an important part in my opinion. The forms of soul/mind/consciousness is something that stands outside the natural order of things. It is free. And not in the grip of deterministic natural orders (such as scientific determinism). This opinion also is part of my belief in substance dualism, the mind and body as separate.

 

[The Engineer]

I still believe we are free, and have free will. Consciousness, what sets us apart from animals and enables us to think deeply, plays an important part in my opinion. The forms of soul/mind/consciousness is something that stands outside the natural order of things. It is free. And not in the grip of deterministic natural orders (such as scientific determinism). This opinion also is part of my belief in substance dualism, the mind and body as separate.

What makes you think the mind is supernatural, or that it's separate from your body?

 

[KCfromNC]

I'm compelled to answer yes. But that could just be my conscious mind taking credit for the deterministic actions of the rest of my brain.

 

[Paradoxum]

I believe in a type of free will. I think we are ultimately responsible for our actions, and that responsibility consists of two essential things that in the end explains human free will. The first thing that makes one accountable is our mental competence, in that we understand what we are doing and why. The second is our ability to actually carry out what we want to do, without anyone or anything forcing or preventing us from acting.

Those two ideas define free will, since moral responsibility is intertwined with free will. This is not a libertarian type free will, but of a compatibilist, as in determinism and free will are not mutually exlcusive. There is only one possible future for you, me, and the whole universe, but we influence the future with our wants and needs and by acting on them.

But if we are determined are we really influencing the future any more than a rock?

I don't understand what you are saying. Would you mind providing an example of how picking up a pen is outside your control?

Ken

I don't think I said it was outside my control, but the factors that lead to me picking up the pen are outside my control.

I might pick up a pen for the purpose of writing this example, but the reason I picked it up is because I feel like I am lying if I don't actually pick up a pen while writing this. I feel like I am lying because when I was younger I was taught that lying is always bad, and this has become part of my subconscious. I choose not to fight against this inclination to pick up a pen because I don't feel a strong enough feeling of rebellion. Etc...

The example could go on forever until every time I acted has been explained since my birth.

Imagine a hard T/F question which you have no idea on what the answer should be. Then who makes the choice? The current you? The past you? or the future you? or not you?

I make the choice. I just wasn't free to make any other choice. I was always going to make that choice considering my prior state of mind and the stimuli around me.

I still believe we are free, and have free will. Consciousness, what sets us apart from animals and enables us to think deeply, plays an important part in my opinion. The forms of soul/mind/consciousness is something that stands outside the natural order of things. It is free. And not in the grip of deterministic natural orders (such as scientific determinism). This opinion also is part of my belief in substance dualism, the mind and body as separate.

Firstly, I don't think we should try to separate ourselves too far from animals. Obviously we are different, but other apes aren't so different from us. In fact the difference between a human and a chimpanzee probably isn't much, if any, bigger than the difference between a child and an adult human.

Secondly, even if the mind isn't determined by the physics of nature, that doesn't mean we are free. The mind must still work by rules, and those rules will still determine it. If you decide you decide for a reason, and that reason will ultimately be your determination. (I say hoping I have used that word correctly).

 

[juvenissun]

The question was not "Who makes the decision?" but "Is the decision free?".

If I can make my decision, then if it is not free, then let it be not free. Free or not free is just a label. What decision can you make is the substance.

 

[juvenissun]

I make the choice. I just wasn't free to make any other choice. I was always going to make that choice considering my prior state of mind and the stimuli around me.

So you want be free? Then you are not able to make any decision. That is not free.

 

[Paradoxum]

So you want be free? Then you are not able to make any decision. That is not free.

What?

 

[quatona]

If I can make my decision, then if it is not free, then let it be not free. Free or not free is just a label.

Well, the OP asked about "free will" without defining it.
Don´t blame me for the fact that all we can discuss on that basis are labels.

What decision can you make is the substance.

"Decision" ist just a label, as well. What, in your labelling, distinguishes a decision from a mere act?

 

[quatona]

So you want be free? Then you are not able to make any decision. That is not free.

It´s not about what we want.
The question is: "Is our will free?", not "Would we like our will to be free?".

 

[juvenissun]

It´s not about what we want.
The question is: "Is our will free?", not "Would we like our will to be free?".

If our will is free, then there will be no problem. Assume it is easy to be not free.

If our will is not free, then we can not make it free unless we die. If we died, we are not free either. So, if our will is not free, then the "not free" does not mean anything. So, there is not a problem either. Example, do you want your son have free will? If you do, then don't give him a birth.

So, what is the question? The question is: Do you WANT be free or not. If you want, then you can.

 

[juvenissun]

Well, the OP asked about "free will" without defining it.
Don´t blame me for the fact that all we can discuss on that basis are labels.

"Decision" ist just a label, as well. What, in your labelling, distinguishes a decision from a mere act?

Are you saying that if we are able to act, then we have free will?
I can kind of agree with that.

 

[quatona]

Are you saying that if we are able to act, then we have free will?

No, I was more like asking a question.