Does Free Will Exist?

[jonmichael818]

No! Computers are not conscience, and they don’t make choices; they just do as they are programmed to do.

Thats kinda the point. We are essentially programmed by our genetics and our environmental experiences. If not genetics or environment, then what would be causing a decision to be made?

As for consciousness, we do not even know what that is, and we have so many different definitions of consciousness that it is virtually useless to say what is conscious and what is not.
A computer does computations on its own without the users input, and the computer does computations that are directly related to the users input.
In the same way a person reacts to certain situations that are the result of our genes, and they also react certain ways that are directly related to external stimuli.

The same way the dictionary does; the ability to make a voluntary choice

The dictionary has varying definitions.
However, by your definition of free will, that would make you a compatibilist, right? Or would you consider yourself of the libertarian type?

The video just showed by using machines you can look at the function of the brain and predict the choice the person is about to make.

Right. Which means, given a set of options, we can see a mechanism unfold that allows us to predict behavior. That mechanism follows specific laws, laws according to biology, chemistry and physics. Physics is either deterministic or random and neither give you free will.
Just like a canon ball's trajectory can be predicted (given there are no unknown external interactions on the ball) and follows according to the laws of physcis. Physics as I said is either deterministic or random (in the case of the canon ball it would follow deterministic physics) and neither give you free will.

If you look at a person with a ball in his hand, and you predict he is about to throw the ball judging on how his body begins to move, that still doesn’t mean he didn’t make a “voluntary choice” to throw the ball!

Which is why we must look deeper, and we have by looking at the mechanisms that take place in the brain.

 

[Ken-1122]

Jonmichael (quote) “Thats kinda the point. We are essentially programmed by our genetics and our environmental experiences. If not genetics or environment, then what would be causing a decision to be made?[As for consciousness, we do not even know what that is,”

(reply) Our genetics and our environmental experiences are a part of who we are! If computers were programming themselves to do this and that, then I think you can compare us to computers. As far as consciousness, that is being aware of your existence, thoughts and surroundings. Are computers aware of those things?

Ken

 

[Phaedron777]

Christ came to free the captives.

God does not force anyone to worship him.

Jesus did speak of those predestined to follow him and from there many of his followers turned back. They failed the test, proving they had no freedom and weren't worth saving. You who refuse to think outside the box and shun critical thinking would have never followed Jesus when he first appeared. You do so now only because he has been popularized.

God did not create robots.

Your society, however, does. It's goal is to establish a world of slaves based on the pyramid model with the enlightened rich elite class at the top.

If you don't believe in freewill you are not worth saving. You will take the mark of the beast, support the beast power, and perish eternally in the lake of fire. Indeed you won't even know what the mark is when it comes, and lo it is here, but has yet to be enforced on everyone. You will not be raptured, you who have helped establish the beast power deserve to be trampled under foot of it.

At the harvest, the angels will gather the tares into BUNDLES to burn them. Then the righteous will be gathered into God's barn. Don't be bundled with the tares, freedom is worth dying for.

By their fruits you will know them. Anyone who has the true spirit of Christ knows what it means to be free because the truth has set them free. How can we be set free if there is no freewill? If anyone have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his. Be therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

Mathew 5:20 "Unless ye are wiser then scribes and pharisees ye cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven."

You are expected to read your own bible, form your own opinions, and become wiser then the church-goers and wiser then the modern day pharisees who preach there. The reign of evil upon this earth represents a collective failure of the human race for which each person who does not exercise their freedom and speak out is responsible for contributing to evil.

The seed falls on rocks, drawing back for fear of persecution death and stepping out of line. The seed falls on the wayside, showing ignorance to what is taught, and the seed falls among the thorns, choked out by worldly concerns. What you don't understand is that seed either falls on the good soil or it falls on all three of these at once.

Jesus spoke in parables, why? So that you would be forced to think, contemplate, and feel. So that you would be forced to evolve beyond the docile mindless lemmings that are easily ruled by satan and his kings. Lo the pharisees do shut up the kingdom of heaven from man, and do not enter in themselves, but do use their knowledge of the great mysteries to control others, thereby gaining the whole world and losing their souls.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

God did not create robots.

What distinguished archetypical robots from humans is a capacity to learn, and adapt to new situations etc. Not libertarian free will.

 

[jonmichael818]

Our genetics and our environmental experiences are a part of who we are! If computers were programming themselves to do this and that, then I think you can compare us to computers.

What we as a species learned and experienced before you or I existed is encoded and programed in our genes, and we are continuously being programmed by our environment. So I can compare us to computers.

Computers can learn and reprogram itself, it is called machine learning

As far as consciousness, that is being aware of your existence, thoughts and surroundings. Are computers aware of those things?

I am sure you have seen the following video, but it is worth the view again. This robot is aware of itself and of its surroundings, so based on that is it conscious?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHJJQ0zNNOM[/youtube]

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Is that a 'yes,' he knows all or 'no,' he doesn't know all?

Being like God, in his image, free will beings, can we free will ourselves away from his knowledge and purposes for that matter? If we are in his image as free will beings, he knows us, though we don't know ourselves so well. I guess the thought here is: are we really so free since we rebel against an all knowing God telling us what to do? By rebeling, we loose the blessing of free will to be enslaved in a revolt against He that knows what is best for us. He knows that spiritual things are best for our freedom and growth and to trust him through his son Jesus.

My answer is No. He is not all knowing for he doesn't know those who are not his. They are only known for a short while by those who obey and trust Him. Christians can be like a savior to those who rebel against God, by showing them their own salvation through Jesus Christ. Why would God want to know evil and those who live that way? He knows their destruction coming and their death even now. He sends Christians to know them and save them through Jesus' Gospel, the Good News. Did I answer your question?

 

[sandwiches]

Being like God, in his image, free will beings, can we free will ourselves away from his knowledge and purposes for that matter? If we are in his image as free will beings, he knows us, though we don't know ourselves so well. I guess the thought here is: are we really so free since we rebel against an all knowing God telling us what to do? By rebeling, we loose the blessing of free will to be enslaved in a revolt against He that knows what is best for us. He knows that spiritual things are best for our freedom and growth and to trust him through his son Jesus.

My answer is No. He is not all knowing for he doesn't know those who are not his. They are only known for a short while by those who obey and trust Him. Christians can be like a savior to those who rebel against God, by showing them their own salvation through Jesus Christ. Why would God want to know evil and those who live that way? He knows their destruction coming and their death even now. He sends Christians to know them and save them through Jesus' Gospel, the Good News. Did I answer your question?

Yes it did. I guess we have different definitions of "God" then. A God that isn't omniscient can't be perfectly correct as it lacks some knowledge. So, I don't see why a being like that should even be considered a god.

 

[Ken-1122]

Jonmichael (quote) "I am sure you have seen the following video, but it is worth the view again. This robot is aware of itself and of its surroundings, so based on that is it conscious?"
　
(reply) is it aware of itself and it's surroundings; or is it simply programmed to react to it's surroundings?

So if free will does not exist; how do you suppose things would be different if it did?


Ken

 

[jonmichael818]

is it aware of itself and it's surroundings; or is it simply programmed to react to it's surroundings?

Are we aware of ourselves and our surroundings; or are we simply programmed to react to our surroundings?

I would say that physics,chemistry and evolutionary biology tell us that we are a product of physics, chemistry and biology. In other words we are essentially programmed.

So if free will does not exist; how do you suppose things would be different if it did?

I cannot possibly speculate about something that does not exist.

Maybe an acid trip while watching the Disney movie Fantasia, I dont know LOL!

 

[Ken-1122]

Jonmichael08180 (quote) "Are we aware of ourselves and our surroundings; or are we simply programmed to react to our surroundings?"
　
(reply) We are aware of ourselves and our surroundings. If that machine were to approach a cliff it would not be able to jump off unless someone were to change it's program to allow it to do so. We can stay away from the cliff or we can choose to commit suiside and jump off without being programmed to do so.
　
(quote) "I cannot possibly speculate about something that does not exist."
　
(reply) So how are you defining free will?
K

 

[jonmichael818]

We are aware of ourselves and our surroundings. If that machine were to approach a cliff it would not be able to jump off unless someone were to change it's program to allow it to do so. We can stay away from the cliff or we can choose to commit suiside and jump off without being programmed to do so.

Sure we can choose to not jump or to jump, but that choice is dependant on our genetics and our environment. Whatever our genes or our environment lead us to do, that is what we do.

Take a suicidal person; they are that way because of either a genetic predisposition to severe depression or environmental circumstances that have led them to such depression. What do we do with a suicidal person? Well, we try and change the way they think, we change their environment. In doing so, we are essentially reprograming their thought processes to a more positive one.
　

So how are you defining free will?

Well the key word in "free will" is free. A person can have a will, but is that will "free?" It certainly is not free of causality, and as such is just a chain reaction that is determined by initial conditions.

FREE WILL-freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.-Merriam-Webster.com

 

[quatona]

We are aware of ourselves and our surroundings. If that machine were to approach a cliff it would not be able to jump off unless someone were to change it's program to allow it to do so.

And, indeed, there is no single incident in which it could be shown that I did something that I wasn´t programmed to do.

We can stay away from the cliff or we can choose to commit suiside and jump off without being programmed to do so.

I understand that that´s your conviction - however, I fail to see how your examples are designed to support this conviction.


　

So how are you defining free will?

I have yet to see a philosophical definition of "free will" that makes sense.
As a societal concept ("the freedom to exert your will") it is usable but that´s unaffected by the question whether you are free or programmed to choose your wills.
　

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Yes it did. I guess we have different definitions of "God" then. A God that isn't omniscient can't be perfectly correct as it lacks some knowledge. So, I don't see why a being like that should even be considered a god.

If God knows evil only as something to forget, pay no attention to as garbage and to just destroy, is He less God, because he doesn't know & consider its nth degree of badness? As true followers of Christ, people love their enemies, not their evil, but instead a hope for them to be saved and made holy. This hope for them dies not, but remains for a light unto them. Are Christians less holy by their love for a knowledge that doesn't yet exist in evil people?

(I know that the Christian people that I refer too are very rare, but true followers of Christ do exist. Some modern day ones are: Richard Wurmbrand, Tom White and countless others persecuted for their love of obeying & following Jesus. They are not perfect, but they are definitely trying. There are few who qualify to be their judge.)

 

[sandwiches]

If God knows evil only as something to forget, pay no attention to as garbage and to just destroy, is He less God, because he doesn't know & consider its nth degree of badness? As true followers of Christ, people love their enemies, not their evil, but instead a hope for them to be saved and made holy. This hope for them dies not, but remains for a light unto them. Are Christians less holy by their love for a knowledge that doesn't yet exist in evil people?

All I'm saying that he then lacks knowledge and he cannot be called 'all-knowing.' If God does know or understand evil, then this tells me he may lack the empathy required to be merciful or just.

(I know that the Christian people that I refer too are very rare, but true followers of Christ do exist. Some modern day ones are: Richard Wurmbrand, Tom White and countless others persecuted for their love of obeying & following Jesus. They are not perfect, but they are definitely trying. There are few who qualify to be their judge.)

Every Christian thinks they know what it takes to be a 'True Christian™' and unsurprisingly most also think they happen to be one.

 

[UnReAL13]

I have yet to see a philosophical definition of "free will" that makes sense.
As a societal concept ("the freedom to exert your will") it is usable but that´s unaffected by the question whether you are free or programmed to choose your wills.
　

What about this definition: "The power of directing one's own actions without physical or divine forces; voluntariness; spontaneity; the doctrine that human actions reflect choice."

It seems pretty clear-cut to me, and very sensible.

 

[quatona]

What about this definition: "The power of directing one's own actions without physical or divine forces; voluntariness; spontaneity; the doctrine that human actions reflect choice."

It seems pretty clear-cut to me, and very sensible.

Not to me, sorry. Do you want to discuss this definition with me?

 

[UnReAL13]

Not to me, sorry. Do you want to discuss this definition with me?

Okay sure. Which parts of the definition do you not understand?

 

[Ken-1122]

Jonmichael0150 (quote) "Sure we can choose to not jump or to jump, but that choice is dependant on our genetics and our environment. Whatever our genes or our environment lead us to do, that is what we do."
　
(reply) Our enviroment is something that makes it easier or more difficult for us to do what we wanna do, so it will affect how we go about getting it done; but our genetics is a part of us! That's akin to saying "you can't go from there to there on your own, you have to depend upon your brain to tell your legs to take you here or there" sounds kinda silly huh.
　
(quote) "Take a suicidal person; they are that way because of either a genetic predisposition to severe depression or environmental circumstances that have led them to such depression. What do we do with a suicidal person? Well, we try and change the way they think, we change their environment. In doing so, we are essentially reprograming their thought processes to a more positive one."
　
I kinda see your point, but not quite; just because a person commits sucide doesn't mean they are depressed; there have been plenty of cases of religious cult's brainwashing people into such an act without them being depressed; soldiers have rather died by their own bullet than being caught by the enemy; etc. but I see what you are saying though.


K

 

[jonmichael818]

　Our enviroment is something that makes it easier or more difficult for us to do what we wanna do, so it will affect how we go about getting it done; but our genetics is a part of us! That's akin to saying "you can't go from there to there on your own, you have to depend upon your brain to tell your legs to take you here or there" sounds kinda silly huh.

If your brain does not send signals to your legs to move here or there, then what does?
　

 

[Ken-1122]

(quote) "If your brain does not send signals to your legs to move here or there, then what does?"

(reply) Our brains and our legs is a part of us! They aren't outside entities that are controlling our mobility.
the way we go from here to there is we use our brains to send signals to our leg muscles to take us where we want to go

K