Does fornication = marriage

[AllTalkNoAction]

If 2 christians get enticed by lust and fornicate, are they then married in God's eyes ?

 

[billwald]

That's what Jesus taught. Church marriage is a recent novelty invented some time after 300 AD.

 

[AJ8]

What constitutes a marriage?

What must transpire before a couple can be married?
What are the essentials - that will lead a man and a woman into the covenant of marriage before God.

There seems to be no chapter and verse in the Bible for God's universal law of marriage.

It is my opinion – that there are only (2) things that are necessary / required Biblical, of a man and woman for marriage.

#1 - You have to make an oath (covenant) before God to be faithful and love another person unconditionally, the rest of your lives.

The Bible refers to marriage as a covenant:
Malachi 2:14 - You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

A covenant has a legal attachment, whether spiritual or natural -- with a covenant, we receive blessings from God, but if we break that covenant, we will not see the full blessings of it.


Secondly:
A Chaplain friend of mine, inquired of the Lord about what constitutes a marriage.
After sometime in prayer, he felt he received the following verse – that which is also necessary to fulfill a marriage contract.

2Cor 13:1 - "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word(covenant) be established.

#2 - Therefore, I am convinced that when a couple are willing make their marriage vows, before 2 or 3 witnesses – they instantly are married before God.

The Bible is clear that in order to be married to a woman, a man must:
1) leave his parents.
2) cleave to his wife and they would be one flesh.

1) Leaving: I think this means that he makes and considers his wife his next of kin - the closest relationship, before his birth family.
2) Cleaving: I think this means a lot more than having sex once, or even a number of times, though that is definitely part of it.

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I greatly protest the idea that the state must sanction a marriage between two people who come together in commitment before God.

Or even that we NEED the state to sanction our marriages!

I understand that there is somewhat of a protection for a woman who has a man's children then he leaves or whatever. I see how this may be necessary since we live in this greatly-less-than-ideal society.
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Biblical speaking:
In the O.T. pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex are treated differently.
Adultery was a capital offense.
Rape was a capital offense.
Consensual sex by two unmarried people was NOT a capital offense.
It was punished by forced marriage (if the girl's father approved), or by a fine.

In the O.T. culture virginity was not a moral issue.
In that culture a wife was considered property, and a virgin daughter was a financial commodity, purchased by dowry. Multiple marriage was approved. So there's nothing intrinsically immoral with multiple sex partners.

As regulated in the O.T., adultery is not being unfaithful to your own wife, but having a sexual relation with someone else's wife. The sin of adultery is not against your wife, but against your neighbor, whose property you have violated.
--------------------

Peace, AJ

 

[repentant]

No it would be fornication.

Also when married you don't make an oath. Vows are a new invention. Christ taught not to make oaths or promises, especially to God. How can you make an oath that you may not be able to keep?

Two people who love each other come together in the sacrament of marriage. They become "one flesh", and there will should no longer be there own. God marries them, and only God can seperate them. Sex comes after the fact of this marriage, and is a sign of the commitment they have made to each other.

 

[Blank123]

If 2 christians get enticed by lust and fornicate, are they then married in God's eyes ?

nope, thats why fornication is preached against in the Bible - because fornication by definition is sex outside of marriage

its fitting too when you look at why fornication is such a horrible thing in the eyes of the Lord. marriage is the archetype He used to describe his relationship with Israel and the church and when His bride ran off after other gods it was referred to as adultery and fornication. That didn't mean they had 'married' these other gods, up until the point God declared divorce(and afterwards when He took them back) Israel was still His Bride.

 

[intricatic]

Covenant relationships work on the foundation of submission to a union, or a commitment to two parties - fornication is just an extension of lust because you're not necessarily committing yourself to someone by sleeping with them.

 

[suprdrk]

Covenant relationships work on the foundation of submission to a union, or a commitment to two parties - fornication is just an extension of lust because you're not necessarily committing yourself to someone by sleeping with them.

That, and/or you're demonstrating an unwillingness to commit by not being willing to wait.

 

[MrsJoy]

God teaches us to obey the authorities that are over us.
that includes the marriage laws that we now live under.
NO ONE just had sex and declared themselves married in Jesus time either-they would be stoned if they did this!
they took marriage so seriously that the bride and groom lived seperatly for a whole year in order to prove that she was pure. and then the actual ceremony was a very big deal as well.
Fornication is and has always been SIN.

I find it very sad that so many desire to put a blemish on the beautiful creation that God made -marriage.
And not only on marriage, but on the picture of Christ and His church.

But, there is nothing new under the sun-men have been trying to use this type of excuse to not only excuse sin but try to claim that God condones such actions for a long time now.

 

[MrsJoy]

That, and/or you're demonstrating an unwillingness to commit by not being willing to wait.

not to mention that Scripture says "it is better to marry than to burn" not"it's better to have sex than to burn"
and "Flee sexual immorality" not "give into it, it's ok"

 

[biblestudy123]

Heres a definition of the word "Fornication" as it was used during biblical times. Notice is does not say "makes married" or "sex before marriage", those are two misinturputations of the word.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Topic: Fornication, Fornicator
<A-1,Noun,4202,porneia>
is used (a) of "illicit sexual intercourse," in John 8:41; Acts 15:20,29; 21:25; 1 Cor. 5:1; 6:13,18; 2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19; Eph. 5:3; Col. 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Rev. 2:21; 9:21; in the plural in 1 Cor. 7:2; in Matt. 5:32; 19:9 it stands for, or includes, adultery; it is distinguished from it in 15:19; Mark 7:21; (b) metaphorically, of "the association of pagan idolatry with doctrines of, and professed adherence to, the Christian faith," Rev. 14:8; 17:2,4; 18:3; 19:2; some suggest this as the sense in Rev. 2:21.

 

[suprdrk]

not to mention that Scripture says "it is better to marry than to burn" not"it's better to have sex than to burn"
and "Flee sexual immorality" not "give into it, it's ok"

Yes ma'am. I had my ring engraved with "1 Thess. 4:3-4, 7"

For this is the will of God, even in your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness but unto holiness

 

[AJ8]

My own personal quandary:

My wife and I were married in 1969 - in the state of Wisconsin.
One year later we moved to the state of Washington.
Then a friend, 20 years later informed us that the minister that officiated the ceremony was licensed for the state of Indiana and not Wisconsin.
Thus we were never legally married.

We lived in Washington for 35 years, but because Washington state does not recognize ‘common-law marriages’ – my wife and I were still not legally married.

And according to some folks we are in violation of the ‘laws of the land.’

Two years age we moved back to the Wisconsin – so I guess according to many Christians - my wife and I are terrible sinners, we have two grown children, with grand children and have been fornicating for 37 years.

It seems that the view of at least some – that my wife and I are fornicators ---- and would thus be bound for eternal punishment.

Neither my wife nor I, feel the need to - redo the blood work, pay for the marriage license, get a preacher and try and fulfill societies requirements - again.

We were married before God, exchanged vows, with witnesses on Oct 4 of 1969 and the ‘law of the land’ can stuff it.

---------------------

Additional thought – can each of you honestly say that you are completely legally married – thus fulfilling the ‘law of the land?

Did you thoroughly investigate the one who officiated your marriage, and are you certain that all the paper work got filled out and sent in properly?

Peace, AJ

 

[ScottBot]

If 2 christians get enticed by lust and fornicate, are they then married in God's eyes ?

There are some on this board who will have you believe that engaging in a sex act constitutes a binding marriage in the eyes of God.

 

[mcart909]

God teaches us to obey the authorities that are over us.
that includes the marriage laws that we now live under.

I disagree strongly. It is nothing short of blasphemous to suggest that the sacrament of marriage which God instituted is subject to the law of man.

 

[MrsJoy]

Additional thought – can each of you honestly say that you are completely legally married – thus fulfilling the ‘law of the land?

Did you thoroughly investigate the one who officiated your marriage, and are you certain that all the paper work got filled out and sent in properly?

Peace, AJ

sure can and sure did

 

[MrsJoy]

I disagree strongly. It is nothing short of blasphemous to suggest that the sacrament of marriage which God instituted is subject to the law of man.

Rom 13:11Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

1 Peter2: 13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Thanks for all the answers, I already had an answer pre-prepared but it's good to see others coming to the same conclusion.

The question originates from the statement in 1 Cor. 6 where Paul describes fornication with a harlot as becoming "one flesh" with her.
1Cor. 6:16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Of course the act does mimic what married people do but it is a mockery, an abuse of what our body and soul is meant for.

Here's what I believe . . .

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What is God's vision of a marriage?[/FONT]

&#8220;[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. &#8220; (Gen 2v24, quoted by Jesus in Matt.19v5, Mark 10v7)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The becoming one flesh follows leaving the family he/she grew up with and the intention to cleave to the partner, and make a new life with them. The physical union follows the desire to love and develop one's life with the other person, a joining of heart, soul mind and strength. &#8220;Flesh&#8221; is the whole natural being, not just the sex organ![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We know that Satan appeals to selfish / sensual desires above God (and the other person) and so a shallow physical union based on lust is his alternative.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But that's not God's idea of what marriage is!![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The fact that God gave divorce shows that he acknowledges that without love, the marriage is not a true marriage anymore.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, should people who don't love each other be made to marry if they were deceived by lust?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You cannot force two people to love each other by making them marry![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You can try to help them see, but if they end up unwilling, what was meant to be a blessing becomes a huge burden and cause of great unhappiness.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~ ~ ~ ~ ~ [/FONT]

&#8220;[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]what God has joined together&#8221; (Matt.19v6, Mk 10v9)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If two people ignore / reject what God says and follow lust, has God joined them together?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God loves a cheerful giver, if two people are doing something they don't want to do how can God bless it ?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It makes us and God look foolish if we are known to command them to marry without mutual love, the marriage vows would have to be dispensed with as they would by insincere in making them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~ ~ ~ ~ ~ [/FONT]

&#8220;[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.&#8221; (1 Sam.16v7)[/FONT]

&#8220;[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.&#8221; (1 John 4v8)[/FONT]

 

[AJ8]

On Sept. 26, 2006 - as I was lying in bed, contemplating a common statement that Christians use, and that I've heard numerous times:
"WE MUST OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND."

Then, a thought came to my mind. And I don’t believe this thought originated with me, because I’d hadn’t really made this connection before.
The thought was,.... “You don’t have to obey all the laws of the land.”

Then, just as quickly, several verses came to mind.
As I was assimilating these verses - along with that original thought that - we don’t have to obey all the laws of the land, I suddenly realized that the Lord Jesus Christ (our example) - didn’t obey all the ‘laws of the land.’

(John 5:5-10 - Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day. He completely disregarded the ‘law of the land’ that according to the Pharisee’s, they claimed Jesus had broken a very important law, the Sabbath day law.

(Matt 12:2 ) – Jesus and the disciples plucked ears of corn on the Sabbath day. The Pharisee accused them of doing that which was not lawful. Again, they were not adhereing to the so-called ‘law of the land.’

(Matt 15:2 & Mk 7:1-5) - Some of Christ’s disciples were accused of eating bread with defiled hands. The disciples were accused of not following the Pharisee traditional washing.

(John 8:3-11) – A woman taken in adultery, which according to Moses’s law was punishable by stoning. Again, Jesus disregarded the ‘law of the land’ and simply forgave her.

The Law could never judge Jesus regardless of anything he did. The reason is because the Law judges an unrighteous man only.

Breaking the Law reveals sin, but Jesus needed no such school teacher. So if he acted in Love, as he always did, he wouldn't cast a stone whether there were one witness, two witnesses, three, or three million witnesses.
He didn't come to stone women, but to save the world.

Alas, we see that for one to simply say: "You must obey - ‘the law of the land’" ---- that it might not be as ‘set in stone’ as we want to believe it to be.


I think that the problem with simply saying – “you must obey the law of the land” is that we have unconsciencely elevated 'man’s laws' up to the same plane as 'God’s laws' and made them equal to His.

Quite frankly, I wonder what problem there really is with disregarding any of man’s so-called ‘law of the land’ as long as it doesn’t:
- harm anyone, mis-lead or defraud anyone, steal from anyone, endanger anyone?

I fully realize that some will claim that I am failing to make the commitments to comply with the law’s of society,..... and therefore I am violating God’s instruction that His people submit to “every ordinance of man” (1 Peter 2:13) (Titus 3:1) (Rom 13:7).

I feel that those verse must be taken with some salt.
Or else, as we’ve just read above, - our Lord and Savior and his disciples will be in deep doo doo.

And I am really glad - that the Lord Jesus Christ will be my final judge...... instead of a legalistic Pharisee.


Peace, AJ

 

[intricatic]

On Sept. 26, 2006 - as I was lying in bed, contemplating a common statement that Christians use, and that I've heard numerous times:
"WE MUST OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND."

Then, a thought came to my mind. And I don&#8217;t believe this thought originated with me, because I&#8217;d hadn&#8217;t really made this connection before.
The thought was,.... &#8220;You don&#8217;t have to obey all the laws of the land.&#8221;

Then, just as quickly, several verses came to mind.
As I was assimilating these verses - along with that original thought that - we don&#8217;t have to obey all the laws of the land, I suddenly realized that the Lord Jesus Christ (our example) - didn&#8217;t obey all the &#8216;laws of the land.&#8217;

(John 5:5-10 - Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day. He completely disregarded the &#8216;law of the land&#8217; that according to the Pharisee&#8217;s, they claimed Jesus had broken a very important law, the Sabbath day law.

(Matt 12:2 ) &#8211; Jesus and the disciples plucked ears of corn on the Sabbath day. The Pharisee accused them of doing that which was not lawful. Again, they were not adhereing to the so-called &#8216;law of the land.&#8217;

(Matt 15:2 & Mk 7:1-5) - Some of Christ&#8217;s disciples were accused of eating bread with defiled hands. The disciples were accused of not following the Pharisee traditional washing.

(John 8:3-11) &#8211; A woman taken in adultery, which according to Moses&#8217;s law was punishable by stoning. Again, Jesus disregarded the &#8216;law of the land&#8217; and simply forgave her.

The Law could never judge Jesus regardless of anything he did. The reason is because the Law judges an unrighteous man only.

Breaking the Law reveals sin, but Jesus needed no such school teacher. So if he acted in Love, as he always did, he wouldn't cast a stone whether there were one witness, two witnesses, three, or three million witnesses.
He didn't come to stone women, but to save the world.

Alas, we see that for one to simply say: "You must obey - &#8216;the law of the land&#8217;" ---- that it might not be as &#8216;set in stone&#8217; as we want to believe it to be.


I think that the problem with simply saying &#8211; &#8220;you must obey the law of the land&#8221; is that we have unconsciencely elevated 'man&#8217;s laws' up to the same plane as 'God&#8217;s laws' and made them equal to His.

Quite frankly, I wonder what problem there really is with disregarding any of man&#8217;s so-called &#8216;law of the land&#8217; as long as it doesn&#8217;t:
- harm anyone, mis-lead or defraud anyone, steal from anyone, endanger anyone?

I fully realize that some will claim that I am failing to make the commitments to comply with the law&#8217;s of society,..... and therefore I am violating God&#8217;s instruction that His people submit to &#8220;every ordinance of man&#8221; (1 Peter 2:13) (Titus 3:1) (Rom 13:7).

I feel that those verse must be taken with some salt.
Or else, as we&#8217;ve just read above, - our Lord and Savior and his disciples will be in deep doo doo.

And I am really glad - that the Lord Jesus Christ will be my final judge...... instead of a legalistic Pharisee.


Peace, AJ

Jesus did obey the Sabbath Law, but the Pharisees didn't understand the meaning of the Sabbath Law, so they weaved a convoluted image of what it was meant for. They thought man was made for the Sabbath, but Christ points out to them that the Sabbath was made for man; as a day of rest and an observance of God's goodness to mankind. Is it wrong for God, in the flesh, to heal someone on a day such as that? I should hope that would be understood to be a very real display of God's goodness to mankind.

 

[MrsJoy]

On Sept. 26, 2006 - as I was lying in bed, contemplating a common statement that Christians use, and that I've heard numerous times:
"WE MUST OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND."

Then, a thought came to my mind. And I don&#8217;t believe this thought originated with me, because I&#8217;d hadn&#8217;t really made this connection before.
The thought was,.... &#8220;You don&#8217;t have to obey all the laws of the land.&#8221;

Then, just as quickly, several verses came to mind.
As I was assimilating these verses - along with that original thought that - we don&#8217;t have to obey all the laws of the land, I suddenly realized that the Lord Jesus Christ (our example) - didn&#8217;t obey all the &#8216;laws of the land.&#8217;

these were not the laws of the land.
they were laws of the pharisees.
Jesus kept the "real" laws of the sabbath if you study up on this subject.

Alas, we see that for one to simply say: "You must obey - &#8216;the law of the land&#8217;" ---- that it might not be as &#8216;set in stone&#8217; as we want to believe it to be.

it's in scripture, black and white.
the ONLY exception that we are given is when the Law COMMANDS us to disobey God.

I think that the problem with simply saying &#8211; &#8220;you must obey the law of the land&#8221; is that we have unconsciencely elevated 'man&#8217;s laws' up to the same plane as 'God&#8217;s laws' and made them equal to His.

man has not done this, God already told us that it is so:
for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Quite frankly, I wonder what problem there really is with disregarding any of man&#8217;s so-called &#8216;law of the land&#8217; as long as it doesn&#8217;t:
- harm anyone, mis-lead or defraud anyone, steal from anyone, endanger anyone?

I fully realize that some will claim that I am failing to make the commitments to comply with the law&#8217;s of society,..... and therefore I am violating God&#8217;s instruction that His people submit to &#8220;every ordinance of man&#8221; (1 Peter 2:13) (Titus 3:1) (Rom 13:7).

I feel that those verse must be taken with some salt.
Or else, as we&#8217;ve just read above, - our Lord and Savior and his disciples will be in deep doo doo.

And I am really glad - that the Lord Jesus Christ will be my final judge...... instead of a legalistic Pharisee.


Peace, AJ

It's always nice to say that verses we are not comfortable with should be "taken with a grain of salt"
translation: "I like how I am living and do not want to change. I do not want this passage to convict me. so i will justify myself by explaining this away." (*NOTE GENERAL STATEMENT ON A SUBJECT not directed at a person*)

LEGALISM are man-made rules that one must follow in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
PHARISSESS are those who MAKE UP addition laws and rules APART from God's Word.
NOT THOSE who stand on God's Word.
Yet time and time again when some do not want to follow God's Word they scream PHARISSEE! and LEGALISM to attempt to discredit them and God's Word!