does EO believe this?

[Noxot]

so I saw this posted by someone and now I am wondering if this is what EO really believes and a why or why not would be nice too. and also explain the meaning why you believe those things. I have many other questions but might as well start with those.

<snip>
This, I think, it the essential question. But this is a bit off topic, so perhaps you can explore it on your own. If you do, I'd also suggest you explore their view on homosexuality (bad nous make bad choice!) and perhaps even women (like not taking communion while on their menses). The Prayers to "welcome" a women back into the church after giving birth are a real treat and I'd recommend a liberal Anglican like yourself explore things like this before you join, so that if you do, you go in with eyes wide open.

BTW: Did you know that "they say" that not only are women not allowed on Mt. Athos, but no female animals too!

 

[Coralie]

> our views on homosexuality are conservative. Marriage is between a man and a woman, sex is for marriage, etc. It's not a sin to be gay, it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage. We have a highly respected and beloved Orthodox writer, Fr. Seraphim Rose, who lived a homosexual life before converting to Orthodoxy. Many people consider him to be a saint.

> Some Orthodox priests, because of ignorance about how menstruation actually works, didn't allow women to receive Communion during their periods (for the same reason that a man with a bleeding wound is refused Communion -- the old idea that food received by mouth goes straight to the bloodstream, and menstruation was thought to be just straight bleeding, so that would mean the Eucharist was being excreted from the body before it could be absorbed). However, this is not Orthodox doctrine and I know at least one early Church Father spoke out against the practice, saying women are not unclean during their periods and should be permitted to receive as they wish to. We are not perfect, priests make errors but we do our best! I receive during my period, if that makes any difference, and my priest has never mentioned such a thing to me.

> I know nothing about the churching prayers for women coming back into Church, you would have to look into that, or perhaps someone else knows.

> No women are allowed on the main bit of Mt Athos, no. I don't think that's so utterly shocking, but perhaps you do. It is a collection of male monasteries, after all. Not sure about the female animals thing, but there are a couple guys on TAW who have been to Athos so perhaps they can comment.

ETA: About menstruation and any other bleeding disorder -- you must remember we are bound by obedience to our spiritual father/priest. If one's priest says not to commune, one doesn't commune. End of story. Even if he is misguided. I think *that* may be the part that is hardest to swallow for a liberal person exploring Orthodoxy.

 

[Antony in Tx]

As to the "Prayers to welcome a woman back to church after child birth", you are probably referring to the "Churching of a mother and child". It was traditional, in the days when women worked hard at home and in the fields, to be excused from as much work as possible for 40 days, including going to church. This also protected the newborn from being exposed to infections, etc for the first weeks of it's life. So, after forty days, the next Divine Liturgy was accompanied by special prayers welcoming mom back, along with officially welcoming the baby into the family. We still practice this today, though many women and their babies come to church sooner. You can read about it here:
Prayers for the Churching of a Mother and Child After Forty Days

 

[Incariol]

I don't get it. File13 made it sound like the prayers were super controversial or something. They sound rather.... Normal. File13 seems a little hostile....

 

[E.C.]

I don't get it. File13 made it sound like the prayers were super controversial or something. They sound rather.... Normal. File13 seems a little hostile....

Perhaps File13 looks at how we Orthodox do things and makes a judgment without looking into it. Or perhaps he had a bad experience. We may never know.

 

[choirfiend]

This, I think, it the essential question. But this is a bit off topic, so perhaps you can explore it on your own. If you do, I'd also suggest you explore their view on homosexuality (bad nous make bad choice!)

I don't get his "bad nous= bad choice." What does that even mean? We believe the world is filled with temptations, and having attractions to the opposite sex is one of them. There are people who have same-sex attraction in our churches, and the call to chastity and purity outside of marriage (and let's not forget, within) are out there for all people.

and perhaps even women (like not taking communion while on their menses).

Some women do this for the reasons Coralie said. I think most do not. It's a tradition, not a dogma.

The Prayers to "welcome" a women back into the church after giving birth are a real treat and I'd recommend a liberal Anglican like yourself explore things like this before you join, so that if you do, you go in with eyes wide open.

Yea, we pray for the forgiveness of sins and the cleansing of the woman--who, since she is an adult, can choose to sin and choose to 'dirty' herself in that way. We also say that baptism washes us clean and that confession is a renewal of baptism. Anyone, when they've been gone from church for a while, is in need of this. Additionally, women are held in equal esteem as men in the church, with one exception: The Virgin Mary is definitely above all men.

 

[gzt]

Churching was done in the West, too. It's not some crazy Eastern thing. It's in my old copy of the BCP, even. Anyway, here's a discussion I noticed somewhere, I haven't reviewed the entirety, though: Knödel: Churching of Women Caveat lector, I don't necessarily endorse this as I haven't read the whole thing, but it seemed like it had good facts and wasn't "mean".

 

[gzt]

I really don't understand his "nous" comment, but my French is rusty...

 

[gzt]

Here's the text fo the Orthodox churching service: Prayers for the Churching of a Mother and Child After Forty Days &mdash; Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Perhaps the poster objected to the following line: We pray to You and implore You, cleanse this Your servant (Name), whom by Your Will You have preserved, and who now comes into Your Holy Church, from every transgression, so that she may be accounted worthy to partake of Your holy Mysteries without condemnation. It sounds kind of terrible unless you know that, like, the end of that is a formula that's used in about 500 different prayers and cannot be taken "personally". And all the rest of the prayers sound pretty good.

Really, this sort of thing is why I greatly prefer when people make their criticisms discursively rather than taking pot shots, because I really haven't a clue what nonsense he's referring to.

 

[Coralie]

...so that she may be accounted worthy to partake of Your holy Mysteries without condemnation.

Yeah like gzt says, this line ^ is basically a traditional formula for "forgiveness of sins", pre-Communion type prayers. I know in my parish, we communally recite a prayer to the Lord before Communion as a preparation to receive, and it indeed includes this formula, just replacing "she" with "I".

And the whole "cleansing" bit is something we (male and female) say every day in our Trisagion/Thrice-Holy prayers (which are basically the opening bit of morning, afternoon and evening prayers... we also say it in corporate prayer at Matins and Vespers, etc.)... "Lord, cleanse us from our sins..."

So yeah I'm not sure what file13 was getting at with that. Churching takes place because Mom has been away bonding with her baby for 40 days and she needs to be properly welcomed into Church, and that includes having the congregation pray for forgiveness for any sins she has committed during that 40 days (because I think we can agree she has almost definitely committed several during that time) and full participation in the Body.

 

[Faithful Skeptic]

I really don't understand his "nous" comment, but my French is rusty...

"Nous" is Greek for mind.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

It still doesn't make any sense in that comment of file13's.

 

[MKJ]

Perhaps File13 looks at how we Orthodox do things and makes a judgment without looking into it. Or perhaps he had a bad experience. We may never know.

File13 is a convert to Anglicanism from Orthodoxy.

I think with bad nous bad choice he might be saying that homosexual activity is, in Orthodoxy, understood to be an indication of a deformed soul. At least, that is the most sense I can make of it, but I may be off in la la land.

 

[Noxot]

ah. well I do not really see anything wrong with most of what was said. except the homosexual thing and also I do not understand submitting to elders 100% of the time either ( what if they introduced heretical doctrine? ). sin starts at the heart/nous/psyche I thought. but that can bring me to another question.


EO thinks the belief in the preexistence of souls is heretical right?

and would you people think the soul of Jesus existed before he was born?

do the EO think the book called "the shepherd of hermas" is inspired by God or not?

File13 is a convert to Anglicanism from Orthodoxy.

I think with bad nous bad choice he might be saying that homosexual activity is, in Orthodoxy, understood to be an indication of a deformed soul. At least, that is the most sense I can make of it, but I may be off in la la land.

hmm do the EO believe this thing about 'deformed souls'?

thanks a lot for the answers.

 

[E.C.]

File13 is a convert to Anglicanism from Orthodoxy.

Oh no........

I think with bad nous bad choice he might be saying that homosexual activity is, in Orthodoxy, understood to be an indication of a deformed soul. At least, that is the most sense I can make of it, but I may be off in la la land.

I think that the "bad nous" bit was his way of simplifying how Orthodox believe that since our nous is a bit off we have a tendency of sinning.

 

[Annoula]

hmm do the EO believe this thing about 'deformed souls'?

i am not sure about the term "deformed souls". i don't recall ever hearing it.
i believe all our sins are attributed to our passions, each of us has more or less tendencies towards specific passions. one may have to homosexuality, another to gluttony etc.

 

[wayseer]

ah. well I do not really see anything wrong with most of what was said. except the homosexual thing and also I do not understand submitting to elders 100% of the time either ( what if they introduced heretical doctrine? ). sin starts at the heart/nous/psyche I thought. but that can bring me to another question.

EO thinks the belief in the preexistence of souls is heretical right?

and would you people think the soul of Jesus existed before he was born?

do the EO think the book called "the shepherd of hermas" is inspired by God or not?
hmm do the EO believe this thing about 'deformed souls'?

thanks a lot for the answers.

You are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

You are demanding answers where there is only mystery.

In EO theology is not rationally driven - theology is the result of prayer not the result of some academic exercise.

Perhaps you need to 'pray your questions' rather than 'demanding answers'.

 

[gzt]

"Deformed souls" or "bad minds": uh, we probably don't believe whatever he's thinking, but we'd really have to get him to explicate what it is he's accusing us of before we can respond to it. If you're interested in what Orthodoxy has to say about same-sex attraction and homosexual activity, Fr Thomas Hopko wrote a book about it (it covers everything about sexuality from an Orthodox perspective, actually).

 

[Antonios]

First post here. I don't think the menstruation thing is a misconception, because in our prayers before taking communion we ask that Christ's body become one with ours, it is in our blood, it is us. The blood and body of our Lord is precious, and so none of it may be defiled, people who are bleeding may not take communion.

 

[Noxot]

You are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

You are demanding answers where there is only mystery.

In EO theology is not rationally driven - theology is the result of prayer not the result of some academic exercise.

Perhaps you need to 'pray your questions' rather than 'demanding answers'.

mystery? like when there is so much light that it blinds you? I prayed and received some good things, but I was wondering how closely EO believes compared to me. do they have some sort of thing where more knowledgeable people meet and can teach each other the deeper things of God? do any churches even do that nowadays? i would hope they would not even let me be a part of that group, since I feel that i am not holy enough. that would be perfect!

but I really do not want to enter into a church just to be called a heretic. how would you feel if you went to a place that says they are the one true church and then when you go you get no food at all except old wheat with fungus on it? if that is the case then why even go? that fungus can cause health problems. I am not saying anyone at EO give such food though. but what if I have certain things wrong with me, where I really do not want to be around people? then I will much less not want to go to a place just to see that it is not good for me to go.

Fr. Thomas Hopko -- The Homosexual Christian

that seemed to give a good view on the orthodox position, thanks. I heard some EO say something that sounded like ( not their exact words and perhaps not even what the person meant, but what I perceived it as ) " homosexuals just have to be celibate"

which does not make sense to me. but Fr. Thomas Hopko seemed to not hold that position.

sometimes it just seems impossible to find a good church, I really do not want to get ensnared by the wrong church. o well, most of them seem to lack so much now a days. I was really looking for a church like the ones in acts. you know, the one where they all help each other out and stuff.