Does Daniel 2 Present FOUR or FIVE Kingdoms?

[DaDad]

Daniel 2:45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. ...

The question one must arrive to is whether ALL Scripture is given by GOD. And if so, then why do so many doctrines exclude 2:45? The verse clearly provides a re-sequencing from the 1,2,3,4a,4b (as most doctrines define), and provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. This is analogous to my wife's shopping lists. The FIRST list is a chronology of what she ran out of or low on. The SECOND list is according to the aisles in the store, whereupon she throws away her first list.

So we have the following evidence:

1. Verse 45 separates the IRON from the CLAY by inserting the BRONZE between them. And if GOD uses Intelligent Design, one must consider: WHAT is the PURPOSE of this sequence?

2. Verse 41 states:

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom ... ​

Per this verse, each criteria is defined. The subject is the "Feet", the reference is to the "Feet", and the reference is called a "Kingdom".

3. ROME is DEAD, and Italy occupies that ancient geography.

4. If there were a "Revived Roman Empire", then PLEASE NAME the "TEN" nations (or kings) which History must fulfill. And here's your candidates:

28 Member States

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom​

6 Candidate Countries

Albania
Iceland
Montenegro
Serbia
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Turkey​

2 Potential Candidates

Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo​

[1] http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm​

Or you can believe BOTH Scripture AND History, which provides the TEN Nations (or kings) which are readily apparent.​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

3. ROME is DEAD, and Italy occupies that ancient geography.
​

Thanks,
DaDad

Rome was alive and well during the 1st century and centuries afterward.

Note the use of the denarius and image in these Gospel verses and also in Reve 6:6 and Reve 13:14,15.

Matthew 22:
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness and said, "Why make ye trial of me, ye hypocrites?
19 Show me the tribute money". And they brought unto him a denarius.
20 And He saith unto them, "whose is this image/εἰκὼν<1504> and superscription"?
21They say unto him, "Caesar's".............

Mark 12:
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But He knowing their hypocrisy said unto them,
"Why make ye trial of me? bring Me a denarius, that I may see it".
16 And they brought it. And He saith unto them, "whose is this image/εἰκὼν<1504> and superscription? And they said unto him, "Caesar's".

Luke 20:
23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said unto them,
24 "Show Me a denarius. Whose image/εἰκόνα<1504> and superscription hath it"?
And they said, "Caesar's".

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"

Matthew and Mark use the exact form of #1504 in Reve 13:15.
Luke uses the exact word of #1504 in Reve 13:14

Revelation 13:
14
and it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast,
saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image/εἰκόνα<1504> to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live,
15
and there was given to it to give breath/spirit to the image<1504> of the beast, that also the image/εἰκὼν<1504><1504> of the beast may speak,
and that it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image<1504> of the beast, that they may be killed.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Daniel 2:45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. ...

The question one must arrive to is whether ALL Scripture is given by GOD. And if so, then why do so many doctrines exclude 2:45? The verse clearly provides a re-sequencing from the 1,2,3,4a,4b (as most doctrines define), and provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. This is analogous to my wife's shopping lists. The FIRST list is a chronology of what she ran out of or low on. The SECOND list is according to the aisles in the store, whereupon she throws away her first list.

So we have the following evidence:

1. Verse 45 separates the IRON from the CLAY by inserting the BRONZE between them. And if GOD uses Intelligent Design, one must consider: WHAT is the PURPOSE of this sequence?

2. Verse 41 states:

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom ... ​

Per this verse, each criteria is defined. The subject is the "Feet", the reference is to the "Feet", and the reference is called a "Kingdom".

3. ROME is DEAD, and Italy occupies that ancient geography.

4. If there were a "Revived Roman Empire", then PLEASE NAME the "TEN" nations (or kings) which History must fulfill. And here's your candidates:

28 Member States

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom​

6 Candidate Countries

Albania
Iceland
Montenegro
Serbia
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Turkey​

2 Potential Candidates

Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo​

[1] http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm​

Or you can believe BOTH Scripture AND History, which provides the TEN Nations (or kings) which are readily apparent.​

Thanks,
DaDad

I prefer the word of God which provides the ten nations.None of which you have listed.Psalms 83

Ps
If your going to go outside of Nebuchadnezzars babylonian footprint ,you may as well include Mongolia and China.

 

[DaDad]

Rome was alive and well during the 1st century ...

The Roman emperors continued successions until the year 235, whereupon military governorship lasted until the year 476 when formal Roman leadership ceased.

... and centuries afterward.

This is incorrect. The ONLY aspect of Roman civilization which HAS endured is their “Senate and the Roman People” bicameral model, which endured because Rome was never defeated. It simply dissolved into the dustbin of history. The disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages had no new form of government to follow thus they kept that form of government, and ALSO KEPT THEIR TAXES.

Scripture acknowledges this aspect where there is a residue of IRON in our current "divided kingdom" FEET of CLAY.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Roman emperors continued successions until the year 235, whereupon military governorship lasted until the year 476 when formal Roman leadership ceased.

This is incorrect. The ONLY aspect of Roman civilization which HAS endured is their “Senate and the Roman People” bicameral model, which endured because Rome was never defeated. It simply dissolved into the dustbin of history. The disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages had no new form of government to follow thus they kept that form of government, and ALSO KEPT THEIR TAXES.

Scripture acknowledges this aspect where there is a residue of IRON in our current "divided kingdom" FEET of CLAY.

Thanks,
DaDad

When did the denarius stopped being used?
And why is it shown in Revelation?

Luke 20:
23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said unto them,
24 "Show Me a denarius. Whose image/εἰκόνα<1504> and superscription hath it"?
And they said, "Caesar's".

This appears to denote great distress or famine?

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover;....
Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance...............

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it

 

[DaDad]

I prefer the word of God which provides the ten nations. None of which you have listed. Psalms 83

I have no idea what you are suggesting.

Ps
If you're going to go outside of Nebuchadnezzars Babylonian footprint ,you may as well include Mongolia and China.

There are numerous kingdoms subsequent to the fall of the Roman Empire, some in greater and some in lessor scales. But these are not "world" empires, until we arrive to the "divided kingdom" THREE Superpower and United Nations era -- which is approximate to the 1900's.

Of course, Daniel 11:2 addresses this approximate 1,500 year span of history in the phrase: "and when he has become strong through his riches ... ", and then commences with WWI.

But in regards to "China", I believe I've posted that nation's end-time participation on numerous occasions.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

When did the denarius stopped being used?
And why is it shown in Revelation?

Actually, GOD was going to refer to money in "dollars", but the writers of the New Testament weren't familiar with the term "dollars", and so GOD relented and allowed them to refer to money in the vernacular they were accustomed to -- "denarius".

Hope this helps,
DaDad

 

[shilohsfoal]

I have no idea what you are suggesting.

There are numerous kingdoms subsequent to the fall of the Roman Empire, some in greater and some in lessor scales. But these are not "world" empires, until we arrive to the "divided kingdom" THREE Superpower and United Nations era -- which is approximate to the 1900's.

Of course, Daniel 11:2 addresses this approximate 1,500 year span of history in the phrase: "and when he has become strong through his riches ... ", and then commences with WWI.

But in regards to "China", I believe I've posted that nation's end-time participation on numerous occasions.

Thanks,
DaDad

Nebuchadnezar didn't have a dream of world empires. He had a dream of his own empire which is the middle east.
The last and final vision of his own empire is that his empire would be devided as it is today.

The ten toes has nothing to do with Rome,Russia,the US,the EU,or China.

 

[DaDad]

Nebuchadnezar didn't have a dream of world empires.

Daniel 2:39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you ... ​

The ten toes has nothing to do with Rome,Russia,the US,the EU,or China.

If you can't grasp the SIMPLE, please do not attempt the COMPLEX.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[shilohsfoal]

Daniel 2:39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you ... ​

If you can't grasp the SIMPLE, please do not attempt the COMPLEX.

Thanks,
DaDad

This is a short awesome video showing Nebuchadnezzars kingdom through history.It shows the beasts which rise within the middle east and the kings of the west .In its final stage ,it is wholly devided.

 

[DaDad]

... It shows the beasts which rise within the middle east and the kings of the west ...

A review of world history does not necessarily align with the Daniel 2 sequence of World Empires; or the Daniel 7 Beasts; or the Rev. 13 Beast, Heads, & Horns; or the Rev. 17 sequence of "kings". To present this perspective is neither History NOR Scripture. Major participants CANNOT be presented along with Minor participants as though they were equal. And Scripture only addresses Major participants.

DaDad

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 2:45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. ...

The question one must arrive to is whether ALL Scripture is given by GOD. And if so, then why do so many doctrines exclude 2:45? The verse clearly provides a re-sequencing from the 1,2,3,4a,4b (as most doctrines define), and provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. This is analogous to my wife's shopping lists. The FIRST list is a chronology of what she ran out of or low on. The SECOND list is according to the aisles in the store, whereupon she throws away her first list.

So we have the following evidence:

1. Verse 45 separates the IRON from the CLAY by inserting the BRONZE between them. And if GOD uses Intelligent Design, one must consider: WHAT is the PURPOSE of this sequence?

2. Verse 41 states:

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom ... ​

Per this verse, each criteria is defined. The subject is the "Feet", the reference is to the "Feet", and the reference is called a "Kingdom".

3. ROME is DEAD, and Italy occupies that ancient geography.

4. If there were a "Revived Roman Empire", then PLEASE NAME the "TEN" nations (or kings) which History must fulfill. And here's your candidates:

28 Member States

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom​

6 Candidate Countries

Albania
Iceland
Montenegro
Serbia
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Turkey​

2 Potential Candidates

Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo​

[1] http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm​

Or you can believe BOTH Scripture AND History, which provides the TEN Nations (or kings) which are readily apparent.​

Thanks,
DaDad

The ten toes in the statue correspond to the ten kings of Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:17 and the ten horns on the beast in Revelation 13:1.

In the text, what does this say, that I highlighted in blue? Does it say fifth kingdom?

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[DaDad]

In the text ... Does it say fifth kingdom?

Verse 41 says:

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom​

Furthermore, verse 45 says:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... -- which is to say, 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE World Empires​

If you don't like both Scripture and History, then please feel free to imagine anything you want.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[Douggg]

Verse 41 says:

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom​

Furthermore, verse 45 says:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... -- which is to say, 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE World Empires​

It does not mean divided into two kingdoms. The United States, for example, is a divided country politically into different political views.

The five earthly substances found in the statue do not represent five kingdoms. The ten toes are the ten kings in Daniel 7:25, which are of the fourth kingdom. It says so in the text.

 

[shilohsfoal]

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-7-24/

A study of middle eastern history shows nebuchadnezzars kingdom has been devided.And after the first horns were risen another smaller horn rose after them diverse from the first and he soundly defeated three of the others.

How many people on this board know the name of that war in which the little country in the middle east which is diverse from the others humiliated three of the larger countries?

 

[jgr]

Four earthly kingdoms:

Daniel 2
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.


One heavenly kingdom:

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Matthew 4
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[DaDad]

Verse 41 says:
Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom

It does not mean divided into two kingdoms.

Who said "two"? It could be divided into ANY number, -- or as history supports, actually there are THREE Superpowers, and the United Nations.

The five earthly substances found in the statue do not represent five kingdoms.

Daniel 2:45 suggests otherwise, and history appears to agree.

The ten toes are the ten kings in Daniel 7:25, which are of the fourth kingdom. It says so in the text.

... and they are also the ten horns with the ten diadems in Rev. 13. But in Rev. 12, there are ten horns but only seven diadems. So can you explain why the "seven" in Rev. 12?

Thanks,
DaDad