Does creation speak of a creator?

[theIdi0t]

I recall Kirk Cameron's argument on Nightline, that all one had to do is look at creation and he can see the hand of a creator. Does such suggestion have any appeal to TEs?

I personally feel, that if creation was what I was going off of, then I would not believe in God, because creation just does not cut the cake for me, and I was wondering what others thought?

It seems YECs see a significant reason to see a creator in creation, but along with the unbeliever, I don't see this.

I believe in God, with a great deal of certainty in his existence, but creation just seems like a shaky place to builds ones house on.

 

[gluadys]

I believe in God, with a great deal of certainty in his existence, but creation just seems like a shaky place to builds ones house on.

I think it depends on what sort of expectation you have of the universe as witness to God. In many ways the universe is ambiguous. The good is set off by the evil; the beautiful by the ugly; the well-designed by the atrociously-designed.

I think what gets to me is the sheer awe inspired by creation, from the scope of the whole through time and space to the smallest intricacies of how a cell works. To me creation testifies of God just because it is so amazing. And I think science brings that out so well. The most ordinary and humdrum thing becomes a thing of wonder under scientific scrutiny.

 

[Mallon]

I'm with gluadys. I think creation attests to God when we look up at the night sky or at a sunset and say "Wow! There must be a greater power responsible for all this!" I think almost everyone has had that experience. And I think this is what David and Paul meant when they wrote about all creation attesting to God's handiwork. I definitely don't think they had irreducible complexity or Intelligent Design in mind.

 

[shernren]

Yes, I agree that God's presence in the universe and His handiwork in the creation should not be detected at an analytical level. Surely it is only possible to figure out on the level of scientific analysis what a theistic universe is like if we had a whole ensemble of theistic universes and non-theistic universes, and measured all their properties, and found that with the properties it has, our universe falls squarely within the group of theistic universes.

That sounds absurd and it is. Besides, Scripture testifies that the effects of the Fall are also present in creation. How then can one look at a creation which, according to the creationists, is fallen, and know for sure what reflects a good creator and what reflects the fall? Is the ichneumon wasp, so well "designed", the result of creation? or fall? And what does that tell us about God? or about us?

 

[Melethiel]

I'm also with gluadys. To me, creation testifies to the Creator when I look at a sunset or clear starry sky, or on the other hand when learning about protein structure and function in biochem. It is simply awe-inspiring - can easily bring you down to your knees. To try to twist it into irreducible complexity or ID is to reduce the power of creation's testimony.

 

[DetailGuy]

I recall Kirk Cameron's argument on Nightline, that all one had to do is look at creation and he can see the hand of a creator. Does such suggestion have any appeal to TEs?

I personally feel, that if creation was what I was going off of, then I would not believe in God, because creation just does not cut the cake for me, and I was wondering what others thought?

It seems YECs see a significant reason to see a creator in creation, but along with the unbeliever, I don't see this.

I believe in God, with a great deal of certainty in his existence, but creation just seems like a shaky place to builds ones house on.

I only see it 2 ways. Either god created us or aliens droped us off. Its just impossible for us to exsist any other way. Years back when I was in college I got into it with a science proff. over his opinion of us crawling out off the water. So I asked him, Name one animal or reptile or bird that has changed the way it comes into this world? He had no answer. Mammals give birth and reptiles and birds lay eggs. They didnt change mid stream. If we came from water or slim or whatever we would still be doing it or be able to replicate it. We would have no reproductive organs if we came from water or slime.

 

[gluadys]

Mammals give birth and reptiles and birds lay eggs.

Monotreme mammals (platypus, echidna) lay eggs. Also check out oviviparous species. A number of fish, sharks and reptiles give birth to live young in this fashion. Also some insects.

We would have no reproductive organs if we came from water or slime.

So why do fish, lobster, clams, octopi, etc. have reproductive organs?

 

[DetailGuy]

Monotreme mammals (platypus, echidna) lay eggs. Also check out oviviparous species. A number of fish, sharks and reptiles give birth to live young in this fashion. Also some insects.



So why do fish, lobster, clams, octopi, etc. have reproductive organs?

Is there any evidence of any creature coming into being apart from the way they do now? Has an alligator Ever come into being without hatching from an egg? Or a bear without coming from its mother? Evolution cant change those things. Fish, lobsters, clams have reproductive organs cause they were a product of procreation. There habitat is in the water. The water didnt create them.Other wise they would just spawn out of nowhere and just be there like a video game. If human beings did come from slime we wouldnt have reproductive organs cause there would be no reason for us to. Thats why I would rather believe that an alien species brought us here the way we are over evol. anyday of the week.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

This podcast by Clark Carlton helps me to come to terms with these arguments and where they may or may not lead. I'm not interested in some deep debate, I'm just sharing it for those who might be interested.

 

[Mallon]

Is there any evidence of any creature coming into being apart from the way they do now? Has an alligator Ever come into being without hatching from an egg? Or a bear without coming from its mother? Evolution cant change those things.

Some of your examples don't even make sense, but evolution can and does produce new types of reproductive strategies. As gluadys suggested, ovoviviparous snakes are a great example of this. I'm sure that if you did a search for egg evolution on PubMed or Web of Science, you would find many papers dealing with the subject.

Thats why I would rather believe that an alien species brought us here the way we are over evol. anyday of the week.

You're welcome to believe that, if you want. But don't pretend that such a view has more evidence backing than does evolution.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

You're welcome to believe that, if you want. But don't pretend that such a view has more evidence backing than does evolution.

And it would still leave the question essentially unanswered. Where did the aliens come from?

 

[Assyrian]

It's aliens all the way down.

 

[Scotishfury09]

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands

There will always be a scientific explanation for all of creation. God made the universe and everything in it to be governed by the laws he set for it and thus able to be explained through science, but I think there is still an incredible amount of beauty and simplicity in the world that indicates God's magnificence.

 

[Assyrian]

Amen.

 

[Scotishfury09]

It's aliens all the way down.

"Hey alien on the bottom, what're you standin' on?"
"Another alien"
"Then you're not on the bottom, keep askin'"

 

[Citanul]

It's aliens all the way down.

I always thought it was turtles all the way down. Maybe turtles are actually aliens.

 

[Assyrian]

It's the green skin, easy to confuse.

 

[Assyrian]

"Hey alien on the bottom, what're you standin' on?"
"Another alien"
"Then you're not on the bottom, keep askin'"

 

[Citanul]

It's the green skin, easy to confuse.

That could be it - I think these guys just added to my confusion.