Does "Co" mean "equal" ???

[Meowzltov]

Catholics are often accused of making Mary equal with God by calling her "co-redeemer and co-mediatrix. Is such the case? Does the prefix "co" mean "equal"?

Because if it does than we have a problem. Paul calls all Christians "coworkers" with God.
"For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building." 1 Cor 3:9

Rather, Catholics should be taken at our word, that "Co-Redeemer means that Mary "co-operates" with Christ in his redemption by saying "Yes" to God, and that she "co-operates" with intercession by praying for us. We too cooperate with redemption when we i.e. evangelize, and we are also little co-mediatrixes when we intercede for one another in prayer.

 

[Rhamiel]

it does not place Mary equal with Christ
but it does show that she has a special role in the history of salvation

 

[pat34lee]

Catholics are often accused of making Mary equal with God by calling her "co-redeemer and co-mediatrix. Is such the case? Does the prefix "co" mean "equal"?

Because if it does than we have a problem. Paul calls all Christians "coworkers" with God.
"For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building." 1 Cor 3:9

Rather, Catholics should be taken at our word, that "Co-Redeemer means that Mary "co-operates" with Christ in his redemption by saying "Yes" to God, and that she "co-operates" with intercession by praying for us. We too cooperate with redemption when we i.e. evangelize, and we are also little co-mediatrixes when we intercede for one another in prayer.

One problem. Scripture says otherwise. We do not mediate when we pray. A mediator stands between, while we only add our prayers to someone else's.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

John 10:9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

There is no need for a second mediator to get to the true mediator. And Mary is not a doorknob.

One thing. If everything regarding Mary in the RCC were true, what did that do for Joseph? Locked him in a loveless, sexless marriage for who knows how many years.

 

[Meowzltov]

A mediator is imply an intercessor, a go between. We mediate/intercede when we pray for one another. It doesn't usurp Christ's unique position because we go through Christ. In the same way, Mary must go through her son. There is no question that she prays like we pray, that she is not on par with her son.

 

[pat34lee]

A mediator is imply an intercessor, a go between. We mediate/intercede when we pray for one another. It doesn't usurp Christ's unique position because we go through Christ. In the same way, Mary must go through her son. There is no question that she prays like we pray, that she is not on par with her son.

When people pray for one another, they do not do so because person A's prayers are better or more effective than person B's. They do so because two in agreement are stronger than one. That is for our benefit because it helps our faith. It is also why praying with someone can be counter productive if you pray differently.

Example: If I am praying to get healed of whatever, I don't want to pray with someone who is praying for me to endure through it. What I do want though, is both (or as many as are praying) to be praying for God's will to be done regardless.

 

[Rhamiel]

the Bible seems to go aginst your idea that we only pray for eachother because prayer is good
In the Old Testament we see God sparing Israel because of the prayers of Moses
God showing mercy to Solomon not because of what Solomon did but for the sake of David his father

and James 5:16 says directly that the prayers of the righteous are very effective

the Catholic Church recognizes that Jesus is the one mediator
in the fact that He is God and man
that He alone could restore friendship between God and man

the Church is the Body of Christ, we are all united to Christ, so in this sense, we can cooperate in His work

 

[Albion]

Catholics are often accused of making Mary equal with God by calling her "co-redeemer and co-mediatrix. Is such the case? Does the prefix "co" mean "equal"?

Because if it does than we have a problem. Paul calls all Christians "coworkers" with God.
"For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building." 1 Cor 3:9

Rather, Catholics should be taken at our word, that "Co-Redeemer means that Mary "co-operates" with Christ in his redemption by saying "Yes" to God, and that she "co-operates" with intercession by praying for us. We too cooperate with redemption when we i.e. evangelize, and we are also little co-mediatrixes when we intercede for one another in prayer.

So.....she is heralded as the co-redeemer or co-redemptrix, but it doesn't mean anything special. Really?

I'm always amazed at the lengths to which unique doctrines or practices that "push the envelope" of Christian thinking are defended as deeply meaningful (and supposedly indicate a much more devout and spiritually aware kind of Christianity than the rest of us have)...but then they're justified as being nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Meowzltov]

So.....she is heralded as the co-redeemer or co-redemptrix, but it doesn't mean anything special. Really?

The title refers to her saying Yes to God, which is a pivotal role in God's plan of salvation. It effects all of us. I too can play a role in God's plan of salvation if for example I help bring another to Christ. But that is a small role compared to hers. She is the first and the best, thus she is honored with the title and I am not.

 

[Albion]

A mediator is imply an intercessor, a go between. We mediate/intercede when we pray for one another. It doesn't usurp Christ's unique position because we go through Christ. In the same way, Mary must go through her son. There is no question that she prays like we pray, that she is not on par with her son.

Not really. A mediator has something to say about the outcome. An intercessor is an advocate. But, anyway, you know that it's common for Mary to be made out to be more than you're describing here...and that is at the heart of the problem IMO. It's impossible to get people to take the middle course on this subject, but the critics have a point, just as the defenders are right that there's a difference between how she's viewed as compared to how Christ and the Father are viewed by churchmen. There is often an exaggeration made in the claims of both sides.

 

[Meowzltov]

Not really. A mediator has something to say about the outcome. An intercessor is an advocate. But, anyway, you know that it's common for Mary to be made out to be more than you're describing here...and that is at the heart of the problem IMO. It's impossible to get people to take the middle course on this subject, but the critics have a point, just as the defenders are right that there's a difference between how she's viewed as compared to how Christ and the Father are viewed by churchmen. There is often an exaggeration made in the claims of both sides.

I know that some make Mary out to be more, and I'm uncomfortable with that. I'm expressing it the way I was taught it in RCIA.

 

[concretecamper]

One problem. Scripture says otherwise. We do not mediate when we pray. A mediator stands between, while we only add our prayers to someone else's.

In Mark's gospel, Jesus forgives a man's sins because of the faith of his freinds. You can play word games with mediate and intercede, but the fact is God can bestow on others gifts and graces because of another's merit. I would say the man's freinds certainly particpated....wouldn't you?

 

[pat34lee]

In Mark's gospel, Jesus forgives a man's sins because of the faith of his freinds. You can play word games with mediate and intercede, but the fact is God can bestow on others gifts and graces because of another's merit. I would say the man's freinds certainly particpated....wouldn't you?

Yes. The idea of intercession though, means you have two individuals, high and low, who cannot meet directly because the status of each is so different. A mediator or intercessor bridges the gap, as Jesus does between God and man. There is no gap between us and Jesus that needs filling. An intercessor is either a necessity or useless. There is no third option.

Think of prayer as what Moses did when he held his staff up and the army of Israel prevailed. When he got tired and could no longer keep them up, Aaron and Hur gave him a stone for a seat and propped up his arms until the sun set. (Exodus 17:8-13)

 

[concretecamper]

Yes. The idea of intercession though, means you have two individuals, high and low, who cannot meet directly because the status of each is so different. A mediator or intercessor bridges the gap, as Jesus does between God and man.

......or fills the gap between me and Jesus. Mary has merited much more than I, so I ask her to intercede for me. Just as the paralytic needed the faith of his freinds.

 

[pat34lee]

......or fills the gap between me and Jesus. Mary has merited much more than I, so I ask her to intercede for me. Just as the paralytic needed the faith of his freinds.

Mary has no more and no less merit than you or I or Bob Whoever, as long as he is saved. Anyway, right at this moment, Mary is dust and unable to come to the phone. By the time she wakes, we will see Jesus with our own eyes, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for her.

 

[Albion]

Yes. The idea of intercession though, means you have two individuals, high and low, who cannot meet directly because the status of each is so different.

No, it doesn't.

There is no gap between us and Jesus that needs filling.

Now, that I can agree with. But it still doesn't take Mary out of being considered a hero of the faith and revered because of it. It's only when the devotion goes too far--as it often does--that there's a problem. In other words, I cannot agree that she who gave birth to our Savior is no more--in any sense--than you or I.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see the term "co-redemptrix" as offensive as long as it can be applied to every other faithful Christian. I would say there is a great deal of truth to that statement. God's salvation is not yet completely realized, and as you point out, we are co-workers with God.

I guess as a title of piety it is fine, but I hope the Roman Catholic Church doesn't dogmatize it. That will just confuse the issue further in the minds of non-catholics.

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't see the term "co-redemptrix" as offensive as long as it can be applied to every other faithful Christian. I would say there is a great deal of truth to that statement. God's salvation is not yet completely realized, and as you point out, we are co-workers with God.

I guess as a title of piety it is fine, but I hope the Roman Catholic Church doesn't dogmatize it. That will just confuse the issue further in the minds of non-catholics.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

so in a sense, every Christian is a co-redeemer/co-redemptrix

I see it as an honorific title, and recognition of Mary in her role as disciple par excellence

I do agree that any dogmatic proclamation would confuse non-Catholics and very many Catholics who are theologically sound