Does Chromosome 2 fusion prove divergence from Apes

[pshun2404]

The key difference is that science is about trying to create the most accurate understanding of how the universe works. Whereas creationist arguments about chromosome fusion 2 solely exist as an argument against evolution and to protect creationist beliefs.

Agreed! But I believe in evolution, just not all the explanations given by some evolutionists for some of the claims (same with creationists). In light of the previous post, how would you INTERPRET the fact that long before the fusion in OMO humans earlier humans did not exhibit this?...you know...the OP?

 

[pshun2404]

Is a presupposed assumption worse than a regular assumption? It sounds scarier!

Hello again to my favorite atheist.

 

[USincognito]

To Pita (but the same applies to you if you will not recognize the possibility this demonstrable observable fact implies)...Neanderthals are human and show no fusion at 300,000 years ago, and then OMO humans at 120,000 years ago do demonstrate a fusion, then what POSSIBILITIES does this suggest?

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[pshun2404]

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

Now though I have read about splitting events in some apes the information I read does not indicate a fusion at site 2 in Neanderthals and Devisovans and when I looked up your reference I could not access it. I was told this site does not have a secure connection and may contain malware!?! So I will try and find it another way.

As for "... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans."

We may not safely conclude this at all...could be or might be does not equal IS. It is reasonable however in light of the hypothesis and I will take it into consideration (but first I must find your reference)

 

[mark kennedy]

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

Except there are 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages..not sure your seeing the full explanations but you never do.

 

[pshun2404]

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

Well just to let you know I could not find safe access to your reference (my computer safety protocols will not allow it) but I did find reference to this study in John Hawkes blog. I respect him and find him to generally be reliable and not dogmatic so I will concede to you at this point that in this study they found such an example (I am not above being corrected). But I will still be looking for it.

 

[Tanj]

It turns out that Neanderthals and Denisovans each had 24.

Where are you getting that from? All the evidence I can find says they had 23...not that there's any hard evidence either way.

It's the lynch pin of your argument. some evidence would be nice.

 

[Occams Barber]

when I looked up your reference I could not access it. I was told this site does not have a secure connection and may contain malware!?! So I will try and find it another way.

Well just to let you know I could not find safe access to your reference (my computer safety protocols will not allow it) but I did find reference to this study in John Hawkes blog. I respect him and find him to generally be reliable and not dogmatic so I will concede to you at this point that in this study they found such an example (I am not above being corrected). But I will still be looking for it.

I am surprised you couldn't access the link @USincognito provided. It's within the Biologos website - one of the most reputable, Christian based, science websites founded by Francis Collins of DNA fame. I invite other readers who are concerned about a clash between Christianity and science to visit the site and hear the informed opinions of Christian scientists.

I just accessed the link without any difficulty. My 'computer safety protocols' were quite happy with the site.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
OB

 

[USincognito]

Well just to let you know I could not find safe access to your reference...

If your anti-virus software is telling you there's a problem with the Biologos website I'll respectfully suggest that it's your anti-virus software that is the issue.

Where are you getting that from? All the evidence I can find says they had 23...not that there's any hard evidence either way.

It's the lynch pin of your argument. some evidence would be nice.

He's been corrected on it. And I'm going to post a few of the link that were included in the Biologos article further showing the problems with some of the assertions in the OP.

 

[USincognito]

Except there are 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages..

Citation?

 

[mark kennedy]

Citation?

Your post, I cut and pasted it, your slipping UCog. I miss the good old days when you were better then that.

 

[USincognito]

We may not safely conclude this at all...could be or might be does not equal IS. It is reasonable however in light of the hypothesis and I will take it into consideration (but first I must find your reference)

Actually given the large amount of harmonious evidence supporting human/chimpanzee common ancestry (DNA similarity, shared ERVs, GULOp, chromosome 2, etc.) it is a safe conclusion. Especially in light of the fact that they were able to fully sequence the Denisovan genome to the point where they could state that they are closer to Neanderthals than humans meaning they likely are a separate line that split from the population that led to sapiens.

Thus, if sapiens have 46 chromosomes and Denisovans have 46 chromosomes, and Denisovans are closer to Neanderthals it is more than a safe conclusion that the latter had 46 chromosomes as well. In fact I'd say it was a logical necessity to conclude that.

 

[USincognito]

Your post, I cut and pasted it, your slipping UCog. I miss the good old days when you were better then that.

Mark I have you on ignore for precisely this sort of garbage. There was nowhere in my post were I said there were chromosome splits in gorillas and chimpanzees. You misread or misunderstood what I did write, which was proposing alternative explanations for why we observe the chromosome numbers that we do.

Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.​

 

[pshun2404]

Where are you getting that from? All the evidence I can find says they had 23...not that there's any hard evidence either way.

It's the lynch pin of your argument. some evidence would be nice.

I stood corrected and conceded the point until I explore this further (and no I cannot access biologos). However I did find Meyer M, Kircher M, Gansauge MT, Li H, Racimo F, Mallick S, et al. (October 2012). "A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual". Science. 338 (6104) which does appear to support your point.

 

[USincognito]

Meyer M, Kircher M, Gansauge MT, Li H, Racimo F, Mallick S, et al. (October 2012). "A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual". Science. 338 (6104): 222–6.Bibcode:2012Sci...338..222M.

We searched all DNA fragments sequenced from the Denisovan individual and identified twelve fragments containing joined repeats. By contrast, reads from several chimpanzees and bonobos failed to yield any such fragments (8). We conclude that Denisovans and modern humans (and presumably Neandertals) shared a karyotype consisting of 46 chromosomes.​

Bold mine.

 

[mark kennedy]

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

'there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage', for crying out loud.

Mark I have you on ignore for precisely this sort of crap. There was nowhere in my post were I said there were chromosome splits in gorillas and chimpanzees. You misread or misunderstood what I did write, which was proposing alternative explanations for why we observe the chromosome numbers that we do.

Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.​

You kill me, always did.

 

[Occams Barber]

'there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage', for crying out loud.

I hope you're not being deliberately obtuse.

Go back and read the quote. It mentions three possible scenarios including the one where it mentions the possibility (but not the probability) that 'there were two separate fusion events in Homo lineage'.

The obvious conclusion is that the most likely event is option 3, a common ancestor with a fused Chromosome 2.
OB

 

[USincognito]

I hope you're not being deliberately obtuse.

Go back and read the quote. It mentions three possible scenarios including the one where it mentions the possibility (but not the probability) that 'there were two separate fusion events in Homo lineage'.

The obvious conclusion is that the most likely event is option 3, a common ancestor with a fused Chromosome 2.
OB

If my bolding of "either" and "or" didn't clear it up for him, I'm not going to waste my time with his nonsense.

 

[USincognito]

So, let's get this sidebar out of the way.

One problem with the OP is that humans are apes. Perhaps a discussion of monophyly is necessary before discussing chromosome 2.

Great! Maybe you could start with an example of our common ancestor? Please be specific as possible.

No! But it is essential to demonstrate monophyly (which YOU wanted to discuss)...if it does not exist the discussion is moot. Does it? Can you show me? A simple yes or no would suffice...

Yeah, this really has the stench of 'what was his name and what sort of car did he drive'. We don't need to have a common ancestor for us to establish monophyly. Common ancestry is inferred, but isn't necessary. All that is necessary is for two or more populations to share characteristics of a taxon or clade. In the case of Hominidae all Homo and Astralopith species exhibit all of the characteristics of that taxon and thus all are apes.

Creationists (in particular, and for example) seem to think that vernacular verbiage somehow constitutes a pure Platonic "form" and that 'ape' can only mean a hairy quadrupedal primate that lives in the jungle and throws it's feces. Here is a list of ape characteristics. Tell me which of them humans lack?

Apes are collectively defined as any gill-less, organic RNA/DNA protein-based, metabolic, metazoic, nucleic, diploid, bilaterally-symmetrical, endothermic, digestive, tryploblast, opisthokont, deuterostome coelemate with a spinal chord and 12 cranial nerves connecting to a limbic system in an enlarged cerebral cortex with a reduced olfactory region inside a jawed-skull with specialized teeth including canines and premolars, forward-oriented fully-enclosed optical orbits, and a single temporal fenestra, -attached to a vertebrate hind-leg dominant tetrapoidal skeleton with a sacral pelvis, clavical, and wrist & ankle bones; and having lungs, tear ducts, body-wide hair follicles, lactal mammaries, opposable thumbs, and keratinized dermis with chitinous nails on all five digits on all four extremities, in addition to an embryonic development in amniotic fluid, leading to a placental birth and highly social lifestyle.​

 

[mark kennedy]

Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion

As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...

... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

I hope you're not being deliberately obtuse.

Go back and read the quote. It mentions three possible scenarios including the one where it mentions the possibility (but not the probability) that 'there were two separate fusion events in Homo lineage'.

The obvious conclusion is that the most likely event is option 3, a common ancestor with a fused Chromosome 2.
OB

I just thought it was funny that he wanted citation for his own comment.