Does Chromosome 2 fusion prove divergence from Apes

pshun2404

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Gene Fusions within Chromosomes are not altogether uncommon. In fact, they are very common among what man has labeled Equids (horses, Zebras, and donkeys). Modern horses we are more familiar with and the Mongolian Wild horse (also called Przewalski's horse) demonstrate such an example. The modern horse exhibits a fusion of genes 23 and 24 as compared to the Mongolian of which they are a separate variation or subspecies.

We have also seen this in varieties of cows and mice, though the offspring of mating the two different varieties are often infertile or produce infertile offspring thereby limiting heritability. This however is not always the case. Some subspecies with fusions can produce fertile offspring with their unfused cousins (in bulls for example, but the offspring are still a variety of cow/bull). Thus there are cases where the fusion is found causing the development of different varieties of cow, or sheep, and so on as well as cases where it is not a factor. In either case however, they do however remain cow or sheep (not becoming a different life-form).

We also see a vast array of fusions in the autosomes and allosomes of Drosophila and other common house flies (each however remaining the same type of organism, i.e., fruit flies remain fruit flies). The Ethiopian narrow-headed rat (Stenocephalemys albipes), the Hazel dormouse (Muscardinus avellanarius), and the New England cottontail (Sylvilagus transitionalis), as well as others, all share 23 pairs of Chromosomes (like modern humans) but are utterly different types of creature and cannot mate at all.

Finally, modern humans (homo-sapien Sapiens) all have 23 pairs of Chromosomes due to a fusion at Chromosome 2. It has been alleged for decades that this was indicative of the relationship between Chimps and Humans and probably occurred in the alleged last common ancestor as Chimps and Humans diverged. However now we KNOW that was not correct and in fact that premise was wrong. People had failed to separate the data we did actually have from the historical narrative that had been attached to interpret the facts through the hypothesis as opposed to letting the data drive the hypothesis,

The fusion at Chromo 2 occurred after humans had already long existed and had nothing to do with ape-kind at all. It turns out that Neanderthals and Denisovans each had 24. Thus Sapien sapiens are a simply different variety of human though still humans. There is nothing to suggest we were or are a newly emerging life-form or that with Chimps we also diverged from an earlier apelike common ancestor, just hypothesis driven speculation . We were all just different varieties of human and remain human to this day.

The problem with this observable reality is that when parties use Chromosome 2 in humans as evidence for human chimp divergence, it is a misnomer created to persuade, by those with a non-demonstrated pre-held belief. The actual observable fact is the Chromosome 2 is indeed a fusion but it happened purely in the human lineage and has absolutely no relationship to anything that happened in chimps or in the elusive never identified presumed earlier ape-kind from which they allegedly diverged. The repeated faith based belief that it happened in some time of divergence allegedly 6.5 mya is an assumption. Nothing more. It is interpreting the facts to support an already presupposed theory (like looking through rose colored glasses). When chimps AND humans both had 24 pairs of chromosomes, chimps were still forever chimps and humans were still forever humans one having nothing to do with the other.

Now this does give to us another issue to consider. If the Sapien-sapien type humans were first, from which all other varieties evolved (the out of Africa theory), then this would imply an un-fusion took place rather than a fusion. IF that theory is correct, then those with a fusion at Chromo 2 evolved into types with no fusion, in other places, at a later time (after they migrated there), and that is scientifically unlikely. It appears more likely from the actual evidence we have, that we can observe and demonstrate, that the earliest humans had no fusion at this site and the OMO humans evolved from them. At least this is more reasonable based on what we do KNOW.
 

mark kennedy

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The only thing I got out of this was that there was some kind of a telomere TAG (TTAGGG)
sequence right where you would expect it from a fusion. Nothing conclusive here, just an interesting question of how it got there. While compelling it's hardly convincing, the evidence seems anecdotal at best.
 
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pitabread

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Chromosome 2 discussions with creationists are always fascinating to me. On the one hand, you have creationists that happily accept that the fusion is real, but just argue that it happened in the human lineage. On the other hand, you have creationists that argue tooth-and-nail against the idea of such fusions happening at all.

There is no consistency of creationist thought about fusions.
 
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mark kennedy

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"Anecdotal"?
Well there are only two combinations in DNA, GT and AT (guanine-cytosine and adenine-thymine). I must admit a tag sequence right where you expect a fusion site is fascinating but hardly conclusive. There is a lot about Chromosome 5 out there but comparative genomics is actually getting into protein coding gene comparisons. The real genetic mechanisms at specific loci are the crucial line of evidence, the tag sequence could easily be dismissed as anecdotal, at least in my limited estimation.
 
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Aman777

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It appears more likely from the actual evidence we have, that we can observe and demonstrate, that the earliest humans had no fusion at this site and the OMO humans evolved from them. At least this is more reasonable based on what we do KNOW.

Since modern Humans (descendants of Adam) arrived on this Earth only 11k years ago, what is indicated is that the fusion took place AFTER the Ark arrived. It was Noah's grandsons who caused the problem since they had NO other Humans to marry.
 
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USincognito

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Great! Maybe you could start with an example of our common ancestor? Please be specific as possible.
Is this the transparently ridiculous tactic where you want a first, last, SSN and mailing address?
 
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pshun2404

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Chromosome 2 discussions with creationists are always fascinating to me. On the one hand, you have creationists that happily accept that the fusion is real, but just argue that it happened in the human lineage. On the other hand, you have creationists that argue tooth-and-nail against the idea of such fusions happening at all.

There is no consistency of creationist thought about fusions.

True but is no worse than blindly accepting a presupposed assumption as true when there is evidence that sheds doubt. I mean just consider, apart from the typical conflation, the stark differences between the Modern Synthesis and the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (same data different interpretations) and how some cling tenaciously to the MS despite the fact that the EES totally negates the possibility of at least four of their seven assumptions to not be true. So yeah, sometimes (based on presupposed "beliefs") people in the same camp disagree and see things differently.

Doubt and questioning are an important part of eventually coming to the truth regarding any issue, especially science (which is often very different from what some or even many SCIENTISTS claim)
 
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pshun2404

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Is this the transparently ridiculous tactic where you want a first, last, SSN and mailing address?

No! But it is essential to demonstrate monophyly (which YOU wanted to discuss)...if it does not exist the discussion is moot. Does it? Can you show me? A simple yes or no would suffice...
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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No! But it is essential to demonstrate monophyly (which YOU wanted to discuss)...if it does not exist the discussion is moot. Does it? Can you show me? A simple yes or no would suffice...
When I get to work and have a proper keyboard we can discuss this.
 
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pshun2404

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One problem with the OP is that humans are apes.

A. F. Dixson, in The Natural History of the Gorilla (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1981) reminds us that Biologists have traditionally used the term "ape" to mean a member of the superfamily Hominoidea and this did NOT include humans, but more recently, they redefined the taxa to include them, now considering them all “hominid” (see also Michael J. Benton's, Vertebrate Palaeontology, Wiley-Blackwell, 2005).

But why would these scientists (not science itself) re-define a term in order to support their pre-held “belief”? This is traditionally a technique of propaganda used by politicians to justify their intents. Well the reason why these scientists (of the Modern Synthesis camp) did this is because under the actual definition (as always argued for up to this point) the elusive non-demonstrable never observed 'ancestor of the gaps' could not be assumed (as it must be).

So to make the presupposition appear to be supported, they had to make up a new definition of the always accepted Taxa in order to lump us all together. The re-definition is a hypothesis based man made inclusion not a reality.

All systems of categorization are useful tools, but they are all man made systems as matters of convenience. In this case IF humans could be classified as not apes this hurt the cause, and that could not be allowed to happen.
 
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pshun2404

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So now apart from the obvious tactic of diversion (which you always rely on) can you address the evidence the OP suggests, and let us know why this evidence is always excluded with the "Chromo 2 fusion proves divergence" camp?

Yours truly,

of the new Taxa, Homo-Cogito...
 
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pshun2404

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Chromosome 2 discussions with creationists are always fascinating to me. On the one hand, you have creationists that happily accept that the fusion is real, but just argue that it happened in the human lineage. On the other hand, you have creationists that argue tooth-and-nail against the idea of such fusions happening at all.

There is no consistency of creationist thought about fusions.

Dear Pita, in light of this newer scientific evidence (as indicated in the OP) the case for it DID happen in the human lineage is now supported and this gives reasonable doubt to the hypothesis (called a theory) that it came first at the alleged time of divergence 6.5 mya. The demonstrable observable evidence suggest that hypothesis may be INCORRECT. I said MAY BE...

Now as for your point about different perspectives (interpretation are a human element) on the same evidence science has the same problem all the time. Take for example how the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis camp claims their evidence negates at least four of the seven ASSUMPTIONS (pre-held "beliefs) of the Modern Synthesis camp. There are more but these two show a clear example despite the conflation attempts by some to obfuscate the facts.
 
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Jimmy D

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True but is no worse than blindly accepting a presupposed assumption as true when there is evidence that sheds doubt

Is a presupposed assumption worse than a regular assumption? It sounds scarier!
 
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pitabread

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Now as for your point about different perspectives (interpretation are a human element) on the same evidence science has the same problem all the time.

The key difference is that science is about trying to create the most accurate understanding of how the universe works. Whereas creationist arguments about chromosome fusion 2 solely exist as an argument against evolution and to protect creationist beliefs.
 
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pshun2404

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^^^^ To whom is this addressed?

To Pita (but the same applies to you if you will not recognize the possibility this demonstrable observable fact implies)...Neanderthals are human and show no fusion at 300,000 years ago, and then OMO humans at 120,000 years ago do demonstrate a fusion, then what POSSIBILITIES does this suggest?
 
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